Challenge Car Values

I have a Z06 and a 348 race car regardless of money vette or porsche is the car to beat. This is very hard to do even if money is no object becuase go fast goodies and data are non-existent for Ferraris. You have to do all development yourself. Vette and porsches guys have the advantage of watching what other vette and porsche guys are doing. I suck as a racer yet could probably claim to be one of the fastest if not the fastest in a 348 just because there are none on track. Now that's sad.

 

I went through a very similar exercise during the second half of 2007. I have been racing a Spec Miata on and off for a number of years and I have to say those cars are a ton of fun and in my mind on the top of the fun per dollar ratio. If you have are looking for exciting racing with many competitors and many racing events on a modest budget then Spec Miata is the place for you. A Spec Miata does not get many grins from your friends when you talk about what you race but there are a ton of grins from the drivers seat.

I was looking for something else to track and race with a bit more speed. I looked at Porsche 996 Cup cars and 355/360 Challenge cars and in the end for me it was an easy decision. The Porsche is faster, less expensive, similar in mainteance costs (no racing is cheap my friends), and there are many around to race with. The last point is a big one that many people don't consider strongly enough. Even if a car is great there is very little fun racing when there are not many competitors in commonly equipment. I posted a thread here looking for opinions a number of months ago and one person summed it up best: "if you level of passion for Ferrari is so high you have to race a Ferrari then get a Challenge car, anything less than that and a Porsche Cup car is a no brainer."

 

Wouldn't both the 360cs and 430 scuderia, which are street legal, hold their value longer in comparison to the 430 challengel? The 430s that raced in the challenge events are not so they are limited to the track.

With the street legal scuderia replacing the 430 challenge model, I would think this may be a factor.

 

My 355C is street registered here in Australia, aside from the rotors / pads it is no more expensive to run than any other 355. Remember that a 355C is essentially a heavy duty 355 derived from the road car with mods for longevity and better handling / braking. Obviously running lots of track days means using up tyres / rotors / pads, but you will do that with any other similar car.
The main problems for street use are the factory challenge springs (too stiff, put softer springs in it for road use), noise from the hard suspension bushes and the CF race seats - which I find difficult to get in an out of. Also, no airbags.
On the plus side, brakes are excellent for a road car, it corners very welll and it looks and sounds fantastic.

Michael

 

I own a 95 CH. Ditto!

 

Of course, the street cars will hold their value better because, well, they are street cars. That said, they are not race cars are will require significant mods, e.g., roll cages, before any serious track work. I owned a Challenge Stradale, and it was a hoot to take to the track (even though it cost me $1,000 to respray the front), but only at 7/10s speeds.

Dale

 

Now that is the business. And the noise is out of this world!

 

Privately owned Challenge car's for personal enjoyment aren't investments for monetary growth. Sure, they will have future investment value once they become a vintage collector automobile, however that isn't most likely to happen during your lifetime of enjoying the car as the racer it is intended to be. For now, money spent on a Challenge car is money spent on an expensive pleasure. Fortunately, you are left with something extremely concrete after each enjoyment of your Challenge car, unlike the more intangible expense of a vacation which may have left you more with videos, memories and trinkets.

 

What do you guys think is the average life of a track car's engine before requiring a rebuild. This would be my primary concern with regards to valuating a track car.

I know that it's going to depend on how its driven and serviced during the its life. But, say you have an engine that is about 3-4 years old with 3,000 miles. Is that a plus, considered low miles/use, a relatively new motor?

I was trying to figure this out by thinking how many laps it's done...so around a 1.5 mile track, that would be about 2,000 laps.
3k miles doesnt sound like a lot of mileage, but when you consider that its been driven hard for 2,000 laps that not does sound like a lot of use/wear?

 

I guess I'm a lone dissenter in the group, but I find the 355/360CH cars a huge amount of fun for the money. Yes, you can buy a porsche or a corvette and go faster, but you'd be driving a corvette or a porsche. Driving a Ferrari race car (sorry to disagree but from the 360 on these are race cars, not street cars- sports car racing by definition is racing modified street cars), to suggest a Ferrari race car is not a "race car" because it is based upon a modified street car would mean a 250 GTO is not a race car. So yes they are true race cars. Not open wheel or prototype cars, but true ferrari race cars.

To be able to race a Ferrari is really an experience unto itself. Because they are made in smaller quantities, you will be able to go faster in more mass produced machinery like a porsche or a corvette.

For me, privately racing/tracking a CH car is a reachable dream. I find it amazing you can buy a factory Ferrari prepared race car for 65-100K. And I love it. It expensive, but something most professionals can afford if they really want to. If you crash it it can be wallet busting, but if you drive it well and are careful, and have a little luck, its just expensive and you don't have to be worth 200 Million to do it. I am of course talking about running one privately. The factory 430 CH is unbelievable expensive and a mere millionaire cant afford it. Hence my hope that this forum will spark some interest in the private running of these cars.

As for out and out speed, at most track/race events, the speed variable comes mostly from the driver. A well driven 360 CH car, (without the areo-mods that make it so fast) won its SCCA class title this year. A well driven 360 CH car with a wing and splitter is competative with most sportscars out there.

Because you can get a ferrari factory prepared racecar for 65-100K, and there are such limited quantities, I would bet on these cars dropping dramatically. But if they do, I'd be just as happy!

 

I concur.

 

It would seem to me, looking in the future that the challenge cars have a better upside than there normal counterparts. Just have a look... you cant buy a 355 challenge "kit" anymore. They are gone. So you cant build an original... just try to buy the 355 challenge badge...its very expensive! The challenge parts are rather expensive vs. street cars. They are much improved models. Based on the far future wont people be facinated by "gentleman" racers of the 90s on up? After all while not professional drivers many are notable business people. My car was owned by Enron CEO Ken Rice... thats a bit of history for the car. The sun has actually burned the Enron logo into the carbon fibre wing. Additionally, Ferrari sanctioned these events...doesnt that count for something historically. The sum of Ferrari is racing. Road cars have always been a sideline to the race cars. I think my 355CH has a better chance of becoming an interesting collectors piece than a normal 355 berlinetta...in the far future. Just the parts alone are rare and different...its those little details that make cars extremely interesting to future collectors. Isnt that why a Copo camaro is worth triple its standard counterpart? I can tell you this... I have driven Johns 430, Countach, Muira, etc and I wouldn't trade my 95 355 for any of them... there is nothing more outrageous and fun that a 355 challenge going down the streets of new orleans... yes it creaks and moans...squeals and protests... then howls past frightened onlookers... the exhaust note on song can be heard for 5 blocks... its raw, sexy and thrashing.... it is not for those who want a comfortable bum. Its a racer... my opinion is that this limited group of cars will have a bigger collector future... its going to take a while for sure... but lets face it... gentleman racer, limited production, Ferrari sanctioned, special parts...come on. Someone tell me what it take to be collectible if not that....

Oh, and on the track...its a lot of fun. There is also HSR for challenge cars now and NASA has been talking about a challenge group. I guarantee if that happens there will be an audience for the Ferrari races....NASA "Challenge" races would definitely be the headliner.

 

I was looking through my records today for something else and I came across the invoice for the 1998 update kit that I bought for my old 355 Challenge. I bought the very last complete 98 kit available in the world in May 1999 and the cost was $24,400 Australian. I would imagine that there are very few 355 Challenge parts available today from Ferrari, though no doubt some of the parts would be obtainable from the OEM suppliers.

I loved the 355 Challenge that I had as it was the ultimate duel purpose, hard core modern Ferrari. They are road registerable here and that and their rarity has kept values much higher than the road 355 versions. However, I don't see any long term collectibility or investment value in them- or the 360/430 versions. For that matter, there is no collectibility or investment value in the Ferrari Factory GT cars either- no matter what sort of racing provenance they have. Expensive fun, nothing more and nothing less!

 

Value wise - The 348-355's CH's have bottomed out. They will stay in the USD $50-$65 range. The 360 Ch will drop to $65-$85K. The 430 Ch is dropping into $140-$160K. I just saw a 05 for $160K. Everyone laughed at me two years ago (I got blasted on the 360/430 board) when I said a Challange Stradale would be in the $150K range in two years because its nothing special. It would drop in price when the 430 CS or Scuderia was introduced. Now a 360CS can be had for $150,000. It's simple. The newer the toy the larger the depreciation. Also the race cars are less desirable because they appeal to a smaller audience. So, they will be lowest in value within the model range.

 

I think you are still too high on the 348/55. Street 348's and 355's all over town in cali are listed at 39K and 59K respectively and not selling. The race cars were always about 10k-20k less than the streetcars. About a year ago Martin at Cavallino had that red 355C for 65k and I am not sure if it ever sold and I passed on a beat 360C over 8 months ago at 85K so the market for those must be in the dumpster too. The sky is falling out there especially on "second" toys. There are lots of cars listed for sale at what "appears" to be a market price but nothing is moving. I think the real value of anything is what can you sell the thing for today right now and make the sale happen. That number is always lower than we think unfortunately.

 

I'm still surprised to see asking prices for 360 Challenge cars in the $80k to $90k range! That's what they were two or three years ago. I'd have guessed they would be in the $60k to $70k range by now especially considering our economic environment.

 

true but the thrill of doing targa rallies in one is just the best buzz imaginable

 

Any thoughts on how mileage affects value of these cars?

 

greg, my 360ch had done 6000km when i purchased it 3.5 years ago, most of those miles/ kms were done testing and racing hence full throttle, since then it has done some 3800km mainly on tarmac rallies and road use thus the full throttle would really only be used at certain times, this then would mean the drive train components would have been used in a less stressful manner.
Given that my car has now done nearly 10,000km and given the condition of the car is excellent i doubt the amount of current mileage would have detracted from the price. In Australia a good 360ch can fetch between 150k AUD to say 185k AUD, a poor example of one could be 120k AUD. Fortunately i have my own mechanics to work on the car my costs are significantly reduced for repairs and maintenance. 360C mentioned the Michellotto engine costing 90k for a full rebuild, I still believe that there is a healthy profit margin in that dollar value. I had a head gasket blow before the last Classic Adelaide 08 in Nov 08, after purchasing a gasket set for $2200.00 AUD the total cost to me under $3000.00 including labour. I have just had my F1 clutch done (pressure plate, fly wheel and plate) for $170.00 AUD. Dam thrust bearing is a made under Ferrari licensing and costs a fortune. Overall the 360CH is a relatively inexpensive car to maintain given that there are only limited items in the car because of its stripped down version compared to the road car.
Values in Australia of the 360CH are still healthy whereas the road car have fallen.

 

I would love to see a good 360 CH car below $80k, for that matter below $90k, I haven't seen one yet. I am sure I am not looking in the right places, I just haven't seen it yet.


Robert

 

Martin's 355CH was totaled by a kid at Moroso!

 

You will. A couple have been sold for far below asking price.

 

A 360 Challenge engine is basically a stock 360 road engine. Parts are easily available and relatively cheap. Step up to a Michelotto or factoy 360 GT and there are a lot of custom internals that are only available from Michelotto (if they will bother replying to you) or direct from the Corse Cliente department. I suspect that there is more than a healthy profit margin in it for them; but as a great many of the parts are not available elsewhere you have little choice. There has been some local GT engine development here in Oz; but it isn't the same thing and Michelotto/Ferrari will black ball you if they get wind of it. Having said that, if my 360 N-GT decided to do a hand grenade act, I would go the local route (or park it) rather than pay the 90k rebuild from Michelotto.

FWIW, I think the 360 Challenge is still a hard sell here and prices are not as solid as you think. There have been factory 360 GT's with international race history change hands at under $200k Oz and the most recent sale made under $250k. The very, very best 360 C in Australia recently sold under $200k and it was concour mint with no accident history and minimal miles. That is the top end of the market and only one car qualifies. The rest IMHO would range from very low $100's up to maybe $150k.

It only matters if you are ever going to sell it