I Need New Forged Pistons - 308GTSi QV | FerrariChat

I Need New Forged Pistons - 308GTSi QV

Discussion in '308/328' started by ctk, Jan 3, 2009.

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  1. ctk

    ctk Karting

    Jul 2, 2001
    238
    Singapore
    It's finally happened. After a very long relationship with my turbocharged Koenig engine, the pistons are suffering metal fatigue. I started getting a very mild misfire and low vacuum readings. A teardown showed that the top rings had mostly disintegrated, signs of crack fractures in the dish tops.
    Alas, it's time for new pistons and lots of advice from you engine builders out there.

    I think I need a set of forged pistons with a higher compression ratio of 8.0:1 instead of the current 7.0:1. This is because I am running a SDS type digital electronic engine management system that allows me to control both ignition advance and fuel maps and no longer the original Ferrari electronic distributors that had their advance curve disconnected for safety. With new FORGED pistons, I figure I can go up to 8.0:1 CR to enjoy better low end response on the rev range.

    My questions are, what do I buy and who can I buy it from? I am based in Singapore not the USA and this makes buying custom parts a little of a challenge.

    I was thinking of getting a set of 8 pistons from JE but this is the first time I am buying pistons and they are custom pistons as well. On top of that, I am hoping to raise the CR from 7.0:1 up to 8.0:1.

    So gentlemen, any advice or suggestions are appreciated.

    A parts guy looking at the pistons thought that they were from a Honda Civic B16 turbo engine. BTW, my piston bore size is currently 81.4mm and the material looks like it is made from Hi-Cast Alloy and not forged but I cannot be sure. The pistons look like standard Ferrari pistons with the dish milled doen slightly to lower the compression. My engine with the turbo should be producing about 700BHP which is why I am looking toward forged pistons since I have to buy a new set of 8. OUCH!!!
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,076
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    You are already detonating. Better do something about that because a higher compression ratio is just going to make it worse.
     
  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,912
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    I'm a little confused about the bore, it should be 81mm.....have you bored out the nikasil liners and re-coated or does it have iron liners.

    I agree that if you have all the problems you list you are or were detonating....bad, bad.

    JE makes very good pistons. The easiest way to get what you need is to go through Norwood as they have all the specs on file so you know the pistons will be right the first time.
     
  4. ctk

    ctk Karting

    Jul 2, 2001
    238
    Singapore
    The car and engine was built new by Koenig in Germany in 1985. I bought it in 1998 from the original owner. It had 2000miles on the odometer and was hardly used as it was a collector's car.

    I did not commission the build and the engine has never been opened, only serviced since 1985.

    From what I can see, the engine has a custom crankshaft but uses standard profile camshafts, piston rods and standard but milled pistons to achieve the 7.0:1 CR. The piston dish has been milled down and the crown is thinner than the standard Ferrari piston, so that a lower compression can be achieved. The liners seem to be original and not iron-liners.

    I made a mistake about the original piston size, they are 81mm, I am looking for a slightly oversized piston for this upgrade.

    I agree with you guys that it is probably detonation as I have been cranking up the boost on the tubocharger to 1.7bar but there is a overboost cutoff protection, and think that it is metal fatigue more than anything else. I could be wrong.

    I tried calling Venolia and JE pistons from Singapore (it has to be 2am my time to talk to technical assistance) but have had not much help as they are not used to dealing with someone across the world.

    The problem is, that I want to get custom pistons that are forged (for better strength) and slightly different (higher compression) from the already non standard Ferrari pistons installed. They were beautifully milled down and have lasted over 20years. I have been redlining the engine frequently and I think the basic specs and engineering were done right as the engine has lasted well.

    I did replace the original Rajay turbo with a Garrett hybrid turbo but it has been running well for a year until the top ring disintegrated.

    Any help with a contact with JE, Venolia, Weisco or any other quality forged piston manufacturer who is willing to advice and help me with a quick and cost efficient turnaround, will be greatly appreciated.

    Am really grateful to you men out there who take the time and share your experience with other enthusiasts. You can only imagine how difficult it is in Singapore to get a custom built car of over 20 years vintage to keeping running and get parts for. I'm a sucker for punishment!
     
  5. Lorenzini

    Lorenzini Karting

    Sep 3, 2008
    85
    Granite Bay, CA
    Full Name:
    Kenneth D. Lawrence
    I would add from my experience, ordering pistons from Je or Venolia make sure that you specify the low expansion alloys and have them mill the insides to the lighest possible. Hope this is helpful, should like help in purchasing pistons I can help as I have contacts at these venders. Cheers kdl
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    12,912
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    The Butcher
    If you want to increase displacement you can fit the 83mm 328 liners pretty easily I think of the 85mm 348/355/360 liners with a little more work. You could also add a 328 crank pretty easily or a 360 crank with more work. (A fellow f-chatter has a set of 360 liners and crank the may be for sale, pm me and I'll give you his contact info...no promises).

    What is custom about the crank? The stock cranks are billet steel and about the best you can do.

    Call James at Norwood for the pistons. He is used to dealing with guys from over seas and will know just what you need.
     
  7. ctk

    ctk Karting

    Jul 2, 2001
    238
    Singapore
    Thanks for the suggestion on Norwoods. Got an almost immediate reply and they are very knowledgeable. Such a pleasure to deal with professionals. you guys are the best!
    ctk
     
  8. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,689
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    #8 mike996, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
    1.7 bar is a LOT of boost (frankly I'd say WAY too much) for any engine that is expected to last for any substantial mileage. The motor is putting out around 2.5X the HP of the NA version. Unless you reduce the boost, I'd be extremely leery of increasing the compression unless you are prepared for even shorter life and the possibility of turning it from an engine into a grenade!
     
  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,218
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Maybe Koenig used Mahle??
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,076
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    OE pistons in all 4 and 5 valve motors are Mahle and he said his were reworked OE pistons.
     
  11. 350HPMondial

    350HPMondial F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 1, 2002
    5,192
    18 mi from the surf,, close to Pismo, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwardo
    Agree totally, , , my (old) 1985 Mondial Cab.,QV, Port injected, NORWOOD Turbo,,,,,,,, was limited to only 1 bar (14.7 psi), , , , and, it was stressed.
    Even with premium fuel, Haltech management, lambda loop... etc.

    What body mods did KONIG use...?

    Edwardo
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,218
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    :D
     
  13. Modeler

    Modeler F1 Veteran

    May 19, 2008
    7,330
    State of confusion
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    a.n.other

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