Funny, I almost included the same comment in one of my previous replies above Let me further add.. if I ever allowed someone to work on my Ferrari and I walked into their shop and saw this sort of crap going on (leaving nuts and bolts sitting all over the ledge of the car), I would bust a gasket and fire them on the spot. Leaving tools and nuts/bolts sprawled all over the car is the first sign of shoddy workmanship, not to mention working practices that can often lead to much bigger problems down the road. All you need to do (while the heads are off) is to accidentally brush some small washer or nut or something with your arm or sleeve and have it end up down a cooling channel or something. Or worse, have it wind up in the dry sump system. I can only imagine the damage something like that would cause. Maybe that's an extreme example, but myself I always plug holes up when working on cars. Leaving stuff on the car is not a good habit to get into. It's also a good idea to block up holes in your motor so some lost spider or something doesn't decide to make a home in one of those holes. Or, like I say, worse yet, so that some small washer or something doesn't wind up inside the motor. Like bob says, just order the new valves and pistons now, because that's the road you are starting to head down. Ray Image Unavailable, Please Login
Man this is frightfull........... Im pretty anal about my cars.........this scares the ****e out of me!!
Limoruss, do you have the Ferrari factory shop manual handy over there while you are tearing apart your car? If not, PM me - I have a really nice collection of manuals and information for the Ferrari 360 that I sell on CD or DVD. The shop manual is two volumes and covers timing the motor, etc. Ray
cheese and rice!!!! go back to filling the champagne glasses with fuel and burn this thing up so nobdy buys it later on with screwed up cam timing!!!!
fatbillybob;"The pros are laughing at you." - SHAME, I CAME ON HERE TO SHARE INFO & ASK FOR ADVICE fatbillybob;"First you do very sketchy diagnosis but you appear to have found a problem hopefully the only one - TO ME ITS A 100% CLEAR DIAGNOSIS fatbillybob;"Second you really have no idea how this motor works" - YES I DO - YOU PUT KEY IN IGNITION, TURN, REV THE ENGINE, DROP THE CLUTCH AND GO!!!! fatbillybob;"Third you obviously have not read the workshop manual to figure it out" - NEVER READ THE MANUAL THAT CAME WITH MY GARAGE DOOR - BUT STILL MANAGE TO USE IT fatbillybob;"Fourth you are using faulty reassembly logic but you may get lucky" - A NICE COMMENT THROWN IN SO YOU DONT LOOK STUPID WHEN IT WORKS fatbillybob;"I bet if you walked across the street and did not look both ways first you probably will not die. But hey its your life your car" - IT MAKES LIFE MORE FUN, DIE YOUNG & STAY GOOD LOOKING! fatbillybob;"Why don't you do Fchaters a favor and post the VIN of your car" - DO YOU ALWAYS ASK TO SEE A MANS VIN fatbillybob;"I hope I make you mad so you will do the job at least kind of right." - WITH THE HELP AND ADVICE OTHERS ARE GIVING - ITS GOING THAT WAY ANYWAY fatbillybob;"Read the manual and do some research on variable valve timing. There is a specific way to assemble cams to get a running car and there is a specific way to get a properly running car. You are on your way to bend valves so why don't you just buy them today? People here will give you good advice if you follow it. Otherwise they will be tuning in quietly to watch the bonfire - WOW - YOU ACTUALLY MADE A HELPFUL COMMENT -THANKYOU
RayJohns; Funny, I almost included the same comment in one of my previous replies above Let me further add.. if I ever allowed someone to work on my Ferrari and I walked into their shop and saw this sort of crap going on (leaving nuts and bolts sitting all over the ledge of the car), I would bust a gasket and fire them on the spot. Leaving tools and nuts/bolts sprawled all over the car is the first sign of shoddy workmanship, not to mention working practices that can often lead to much bigger problems down the road. - WELL WE'RE NOT EXPECTING ANY EARTHQUAKES, LOOK CLOSELY- TISSUE ROLL IS IN EACH PORT (not just there to wipe my bum on) RayJohns; All you need to do (while the heads are off) is to accidentally brush some small washer or nut or something with your arm or sleeve and have it end up down a cooling channel or something. Or worse, have it wind up in the dry sump system. I can only imagine the damage something like that would cause. Maybe that's an extreme example, but myself I always plug holes up when working on cars. - HOPEFULLY I WILL BE ABLE TO CONTOL ANY UNEXPECTED OUTBURST OF MY NERVOUS SYSTEM It's also a good idea to block up holes in your motor so some lost spider or something doesn't decide to make a home in one of those holes. Or, like I say, worse yet, so that some small washer or something doesn't wind up inside the motor. - I WILL PUT A SIGN AT MY GARAGE DOOR BANNING SPIDERS - Don't you just hate the sound of spiders webs spitting out of your exhaust!! RayJohns; Like bob says, just order the new valves and pistons now, because that's the road you are starting to head down. - RAY, PLEASE BE CAREFUL TYPING - YOUR FINGERS COULD SLIP OFF YOUR KEYBOARD AND GET CAUGHT ON THE SHARP SIDE OF YOUR MOUSE MAT
It is fun sometimes just to launch into something and hope for the best. Clint Eastwood said "A man needs to know him limitations." If you are doing this because you think it is fun and are not really concerned with the outcome then fine. Personally I think disaster looms. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you don't. What is 3 days of your time worth? I stand by my original statement. Like Ray Johns I have built engines etc. I am still not working on my Ferrari.
Limoruss you are the man.... I like so much seeing people do their own maintenance on their own car! Who gives a what else ppl say? Do the job and best luck mate! A, we are all waiting for the vid! Haha, Konstantinos
I've rebuilt engines as well. And while I've torn the engine down some on my 328, I still doubt I'd tackle cranks and heads. Now way would I feel comfortable getting to the internals on the 360. Not worth the pucker-factor.
Looking forward to see vidoe on startup. keep pictures coming. I would never let any1 but official ferrari shops work on my car. No matter what i saved. These are expensive toys.
Disaster does not loom. Yes, I know that the factory manual says to dial in the cams after changing the timing belt. But anyone who does not understand what he is doing - putting the timing back where it was before he started (and if his marks line up that is exactly where it will be) - does not have a basic understanding of how engines work. He may not have have the optimum timing, but if he doesn't then he didn't before, and that would not be surprising given that many thousands of miles had likely passed since the belt was last changed. So what. There is NO way this method will result in bending a valve. I thank the poster for sharing his experience with the broken valve spring. It has been an interesting and educational thread for me. The thought of a 360 motor screaming down the road and spewing out spiders from the exhaust sends chills up my spine.
Off to the Ferrari Dealership in the morning to pick up valve, gaskets, belt and seals. And yes "RayJohns" I also purchased the workshop manual. (Suggestions are always more welcome than criticism) Thanks so far to all the optimistic helpful people out there, and remember you pessimistic lot - A Ferrari maybe the best car in the world, but at the end of the day its just a car, the only diffrence is quality. When this fun is over I would be intrested to see how many of you "dare" to undertake simple basic operations like re-fueling, checking water levels! One funny thing I will remember from this thread is someones signature quoting "Remember, the object of life is not to arrive at the grave in a well preserved body, but to slide in sideways all worn out yelling HOLY **** WHAT A RIDE ! ..." Image Unavailable, Please Login
Yeah, Clint Eastwood... "A man has got to know his limitations" all right. It's difficult to say if this project is heading for problems. Of course, that could have been said prior to the launch of the space shuttle challenger as well. I've built a hand full of motors in my day. My biggest project (which I learned the most from) was one where I designed and built the motor from scratch when I was younger. I spent weeks going through the technical diagrams and specs for Nissan until I found a combination of rods, blocks, pistons, heads that would all work together. In the end, I came up with a very nice combination that allowed me to build a 2.2 liter motor to replace the stock 1.6 liter motor that came in the 510. At the time, most people where building 1800 or 2 liter motors. I believe I was the first to ever build a 2.2 liter. In fact, a few years later some of the Datsun race outfits started copying my design for customers. Anyway, I spent many months researching before I ever turned a wrench. I also spent quite a bit of time talking to others. Through the entire process I was always very willing to listen to what others had to say. That actually saved my ass a couple of times. In one case, after speaking with the techs at Nissan Motor Sports, they informed me that there were actually two blocks floating around. Wow, that was shocking to discover. The block I was interested in was used in both a truck (I think the 720 pickup) and also another car (I think maybe the nissan maxima). The difference, however, was pretty significant. Turns out one of the blocks (I forget which, the E casting or the S casting) had thinner walls in order to reduce the weight of the block and thus provide better fuel economy for the maxima. The other block (from the truck) didn't have this and as a result had much thicker walls. This turned out to be very important, because I was boring the block .080" over in order to help increase the displacement of the motor. If I had done that on the thin wall version of the block, the side walls of the cylinders could have started to flex under high RPM's, which wouldn't have been a good thing. Or worse, I could have accidentally cut into a water jacket or something. So it pays to listen to others who might help you and/or steer you in the right direction. Another situation that I ran into was even more significant to the life of the motor. While working on the motor, I contacted Nissan Motor Sports just to touch base and run a few problems by them. When I called, they said "Are you the guy building that LZ 2.2 motor hybrid?". And I say "yes, that's me". The guy goes "Oh my god, I'm so glad you called back, we've discovered a potential flaw with your design". The funny thing is that due to legal regulations at the company, they couldn't tell me what it was. The guy on the phone just kept saying "you need to carefully check everything again between the block and that head you plan to use". I got off the phone and was puzzled. I had gone over the cylinder head gasket 100 times and never noticed any problems between the head and block. I actually had to take another head gasket and modify it to work with my project, since there was no "stock" head gasket available, so I had checked and double and triple checked the head to the block at least 10 times. Even after inspecting it closely, I could not see any problems. Hmm.. very odd. None the less, the tech at Nissan was certain there could be an issue that might affect the motor. I had to pin this down. So what I finally did was take tracing paper and trace out all the edges and holes of the block. The bores, the water and oil passages, etc. Then I flipped it over and laid it on the cylinder head. I checked everything and it all looked fine. However, when I looked very closely, sure enough, the oil jet in the block was nearly perfectly blocked by just the edge of the hole in the cylinder head! Wow! If I had put the motor together, there would have been probably only 20% or less oil getting to the valves. I was never so happy I called back to chat with the techs in my life! I ended up having to flare out the hole in the head a little bit (only about 2mm) so that the oil from the block would have an unobstructed path up into the cylinder head. I also yanked out the stock oil jet from the block and made my own (with the hole in the jet drilled slightly off set in order to center it more). That was just one of many issues. I ended up spending the better part of a year working on that motor. I had to have custom forged pistons made. I mean, just every nut and bolt had to be thought out on that motor. It was really a great education on blue printing and building a motor. Another example was on that that same motor, I wanted to use a very trick (for the time) gated/baffled 7 quart racing oil pan. However, the pan was very expensive back then (about $500 or $700 as I recall). The company that sold the pan also sold it in a kit form for much less - where you could weld it yourself using a stock core. So to save money, I ordered that and MIG welded it myself. A lot harder than it looks. My pan came out horrible - way too shallow; I had to cut the sump to work with it. In the end, I wasn't happy with it and sold my MIG welded pan, then ponied up and bought the professionally done one. I was glad I did because the professionally made pan was beautiful. That's an example where (at the time), I was simply beyond what I could handle when it came to welding. I didn't have a TIG welder and my little MIG made a mess of everything. Again, Clint says it best "A man's got to know his limitations". After working on the motor and researching it for months and months, I finally got to the point of assembling it. The crank and pistons and flywheel had all been balanced to a 1/4 gram, the block was deburred inside and out. I went so far as to chamfer every single threaded hole on the motor in order to relieve any possible stress on the top threads I mean, this motor was perfect. I put it all together and finally built out the intake and exhaust. The big day came and I put it in the car and hooked up the tranny to it (I will spare you the story about the tranny Anyway, when I turned the key, that motor cranked over for about 1/4 second and fired up to life like you wouldn't believe. It sounded amazing and even idled perfectly from minute one. All the planning and work, research and attention to detail paid off. That taught me that you spend 95% of your time planning and researching and only about 5% of your time wrenching. The point here is that even with that level of experience building motors - blue printing and designing an entire motor from scratch - I'm still very cautious about tearing into my Ferrari. It's not that I'm scared to work on the motor. It's simply that I am not privy to all the F1 sort of stuff that Ferrari has packed into the car. As stated in this thread, I originally started down the path of "just change the belt and everything else remains the same". As mentioned, when I ran this by the folks at FNA, they pointed out all the areas where I had mis-stepped. Once they explained the reasons why it may not work as I had envisioned, I could clearly see how naive I had been in thinking I could just swap belts and then presume everything else would be happy in the motor with regard to how the ECU perceived the timing, etc. So in closing, I'll say this: I have related that exact same information here, for the benefit of anyone who decides to work on there motor, most of all limoruss, so that he doesn't end up with a CEL when he's done - or worst, with some dented pistons. But if limoruss doesn't wish to heed the advice, that's fine with me. It's his car, not mine. This thread (and limoruss attitude to several of us urging him to do the job right) is starting to remind me a lot of Pulp Fiction where they call the Winston Wolfe to help them dispose of a body. As he says in the scene below (@ ~ 3:10) , "I'm here to help... if my help's not appreciated, lots of luck gentlemen". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANPsHKpti48 So Limoruss, pretty please... with sugar on top, time the motor when you're done. Ray
I hold the exact same view "it's just a car" and at the end of the day there is no reason to be scared to work on your 360 or F40 or Enzo. However, the caveat here is that while it's "just a car", it's still one very complex and advanced car too. I still stand by my original statement: if you do not plan to re-time the motor properly when changing the timing belts, then you fall into the hack mechanic category. Ray
You watch far to much TV!! Seriously - I appreciate exactly what your saying and its mainly you who's convinced me to buy a manual and sonic belt tension tester, what the hell - my workshop's full of tools that only get used every 10 years or so! I bought this Ferrari with the full intent on undertaking all major work myself, at the same time allowing a specialist to do the essential servicing! - Only in order to hold resale value. In my wildest dreams I wouldn't cover it up and leave it in the back of my workshop, Its here to be used daily, rain, hail & snow. I drive the car in what I would consider 'very hard' manor, thats why I bought a Ferrari & not a Subaru imprezy thingy... I get an equal amount of pleasure driving it as I do repairing it. My attitude is that if I blow this block, I'll buy another to drop in & have fun rebuilding this one!! This brings me back to the fact that I am 100% convinced I will have the engine back together and running soon! Watch the video I'm gona do, if I fail, I'll take it like a man. So keep posting the advice, I take it all in with thanks As for the office workers who think refueling is a great mechanical achievement, and an oil change isn't for the faint hearted - stop posting on this thread & get back to waxing your red Ferrari's
I agree with you totally. I drive my car hard. In the rain, etc. In a lot of ways, it handles the rain better than my truck. I've diven my 360 through puddles so large that when you hit them it looks like a wave in Hawaii - and for a few minutes after that just the steam from the water that hit the engine compartment fogs the back window up. And, like you, I agree... the car is there to be enjoyed and if something breaks on it, I'll yank it out and fix it. I don't abuse the car, nor am I afraid to drive it and enjoy it. However, none of that is a pass to doing shoddy or sloppy work on the car - or to doing any work incorrectly. I'm glad to see you got a belt meter so you can set the tension properly and that you have the shop manual. I hope you will re-time the motor correctly and not just hope that having a different belt on the same teeth is close enough. I'm sure the next owner will thank you for the extra time you spend doing this job right. Ray
This thread is both educational and entertaining. I don't know what is funnier- the reference to the pulp fiction scene or the idea that one can just change the timing belts on a highly complex and evolved interference motor, without proper tools or training. Somehow, I think this motor is going to end up at a authorized Ferrari service center to have it's original and secondary problems sorted out. Oh Limoruss- your jokes are pretty good too!
Oh now, come on guys....why are you so agressive with him? Personally i wouldn't even dare to unbolt and remove the cylinder head of a 360 engine,and i guess many other Fch's think the same way. Give this guy every bit of knowledge you have and you believe it will be helpful and stop asking for "vin number"....come on. In the other hand, he himself mentioned that if the reassembly doesn't go as it should, then he will have an authorized dealer do the job,so what's the prob here? Haha, anyway, i like this thread but i too wanted some more pics. Konstantinos
Does ONE sleep at night hugging ONE'S teddy bear with ONE'S light on! One should read Ones thread when One asks for technical help and requests waxers not to comment. I will be deleting non-informative, non-helpful threads. Info / Hints / Tips / Constructive advice - ALL WELCOME
Entertaining thread. This motor will run I am sure but the difference with an experienced great F mechanic is the car will run better than factory and perform awesome, a half azzed job the car will get blow off by a Hyundai and never run right. Many pros are hacks but some are worth what they are paid, Ferrari motors are extremely fussy and expensive if you screw up they are not like typical cars. Even the best Ferrari mechanics have a hrd time with some issues
Constructive advice: All I know is that at my 30K timing belt service the following was done: hydraulic tensioners: replaced some bushings, screws, bolts: replaced power steering and alternator belts: replaced
