Coughlan and Stepny can come back..They should be in jail.

Italian authorities fined the bad guys with 6 figure penalties and closed the case today.

Except for Stepney, who still faces charges of industrial espionage and sabotage.

I hope he'll get a jail sentence.

 

What authorities have fined them and where does Stepney still face charges? Source please.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7906041.stm

??

 

"Domenicalli deffinitely puts a booger on Ron Dennis when he hugs him.RD would do the same if he wasnt a p*ssy."
That's funny

 

Thanks Steve.

 

"But Ferrari will continue legal action against ex-employee Nigel Stepney, who is accused of passing on the data."

If that quote accurately reflects the situation it means that Ferrari is conducting civil proceedings against Stepney, it is not a criminal case brought by the state and there is no question of a jail sentence. Thank goodness; I see absolutely no moral difference between stealing ideas from plans and stealing ideas by 'spying' on a car when it's on a track - and that's been going on for ever.

 

dont let the actual facts get in the way of a good rant will you.

 

Amen.

But I agree that Ferrari should be upset with Stepney. As I've said all along with this stupid over pressed saga of nothing, the CAUSE of this was Stepney. Stepney was pissed with Ferrari because they would not promote him, they moved him sideways out of the way instead.

Stepney broke Ferrari's trust because of this and took information out of the company he worked for. For this Ferrari should kick his backside.

There is no other issue here. If Ferrari had honourable workers working for them, this would never have happened (can't use information you cannot get) ... instead they had Stepney.

Can we please stop talking about industrial espionage, and patents, etc. ... the purpose of F1 is to advance the motor car, not to make money. Patents stop this process and is the opposite direction that we need for the sport.
Pete

 

No it does not accurately reflect the situation. The government (prosecutor) will pursue the case of industrial espionage and sabotage:
http://www.motorsport-aktuell.com/formel-1/news/spionage-affaere-beendet-8161.html

" wird gegen den Briten weiter ermittelt – wegen Spionage und auch Sabotage."
Translation: "they continue the investigation against the Briton (Stepney) regarding espionage and also sabotage."

And I hope they will find Stepney guilty and put him in jail where he belongs.

 

Your German will be much better than mine but I don't see anything in there about 'the government' or 'prosecutor'.

Why would you hope they find Stepney guilty and put him in jail - surely you mean that if they find Stepney guilty you hope they put him in jail. Although from the, 'where he belongs', part of your post I assume you have already judged him guilty.

If Stepney is guilty of sabotage I agree that he should be dealt with severely. As for 'espionage', that has been going on forever in F1 and to adopt a high moral tone in this particular instance whilst ignoring or condoning all the other instances is simply applying double standards.

 

True, it doesn't mention gov or prosecution, it says an investigation is going on. While that could be a private investigation by Ferrari, I would severly doubt that given the tone.

We have covered this ground before, so one more time:

Ideas are constantly passed within F1, people have "spies" taking pictures and employees get hired by the competition. That is all ok and normal and in some cases these employees bring along some documentation. That is not ok and sometimes becomes a case.

What Coughland and Stepney did however went a lot further: Stepney was selling the entire book about the F1 Ferrari to Coughlan for $$$. And as you recall there was a constant back and forth about actual technical questions which ultimately led to the improvement of the McLaren's brake system. That is industrial espionage.

Stepney was caught red handed putting washing detergent into the F1 Ferrari engine in the Monaco pits. That is sabotage.

Yes, in my mind he is guilty and that's why I want him in jail. Not because he worked against Ferrari, but because he is a criminal.

PS: My German better be way better than yours. It is my mother tongue.

 

That's where my problem lies. Stealing ideas is stealing ideas, it doesn't matter how, when or where they are stolen. Photographing a car, listening to and analysing the sound of the engine, etc, is spying and using the information acquired from those activities is stealing intellectual property. Morally I see no difference between that and acquiring the information in the way it was done in the Stepney case. It's a bit like saying it's wrong to go into someone's house and steal their money but it's OK to snatch their wallet on the street.

I rather thought it might be and I certainly wasn't going to get into a debate with you on the precise wording of the article.

 

I disagree here. Every team has the possibility to listen to the other engines, take photos in the pit lane etc. It's like a company buying a products of their competitors, disassembling and reverse engineering them. Is that stealing intellecutal property?

 

Precisely.

I think a US judge once said something like "I know porn when I see it". Well, the usual stuff that goes on in F1 is an edition of Playboy magazine compared to the XXX stuff Stepney pulled by screwing the Scuderia.

 

Of course it's stealing intellectual property!

 

I now know why Americans are not involved in proper motorsport. The only thing they can be involved in is racing where every friggin car is exactly the same, except maybe for the badge.

Motorsport is motorsport, it should absolutely NOT involved interllectual property laws, just rules for safety, etc.

The only thing that was wrong in this whole saga was Stepney taking Ferrari details OUT of Ferrari. Copying another race car should be encouraged, so that the field evens out AND the humble motor car is advanced.

NASCAR and Indy cars are of course stuck in the dinosaur age because of the "stupid" (sorry had to use this term) American legal attitude. It amazes me constantly that you guys were ever able to create the space shuttle ... hope you got legal permission to design a craft that flies with wings? Probably added years to the project writing up all the unnecessary patent documents ... :banging head against his desk:
Pete

 

I think there's a flaw in your logic, Pete. You appear to abhor the situation where "every friggin car is exactly the same" yet believe copying should be encouraged to even the field out. But one inevitably leads to the other. Copying does even the field out, which is the reason I'm in favour of it; if one team developed something that gave it a big advantage and others were prohibited from copying it, it would be the end of racing. But copying evens out the field by making the cars more like one another. If copying was taken to its logical conclusion every car would be exactly the same; they'd all be clones of the best car.

 

This is a real grey tricky area, Ian.. My problem with the saga was the stupid amount of money Mclaren was fined.

Both guys were caught with there hands in the cookie jar, I find it strange that Max allows them to still work in F1, or is it they could bring alot more out about the inner workings of F1 and could cause alot of embarrassment, to concur with your view.

So in a nut shell it is ok to copy, but you have to do it without getting caught..it's a mind field IMO!! one which gives the likes of Max carte blanche in his one sided maladjusted fines....which I hate!!

 

Of corse one of the big games played many times in the past was to prodce some wierd off the wall device and bolt it on. when the car went faster everyone else assumed this was the reason and spent time trying to make it work on their car ignoring a more blatant 'bending' of a rule. Been there done that on both sides......more difficult in the modern era though bt still going on.

 

What I find objectionable, Steve, is inconsistency. Acquiring, by whatever means, the ideas of other teams should either be within or against the rules (I personally think it should not be against the rules for the reason I mentioned in my earlier post). However, if it is decided it is against the rules then every time it happens there should be some form of punishment and that certainly hasn’t been the case in the past. For McLaren to be fined a huge amount for getting their hands on someone else’s technology while (nearly?) all other teams have done the same is ludicrous.

 

Yes I agree, taking photo's listening to engines,timing and the main one team members/engineers aero guy's, you name it moving from one team to another, armed with knowledge it can't be stopped, and I have no problem with that.

Even at the height of this saga, Renault were caught in possession of Mclaren data, nothing was done, nothing!! just brushed under the carpet..and they had it for ages...

Inconsistency and gravity of the offences in relation to what really happens across the whole of F1 are IMO poles apart, and it is this that added fuel to fire of Max's biased and loathing of RD, along with deciding the race result's after it finished, hopefully this may now not be such an issue...but I put the blame firmly at Max's filthy doorstep.

As the main rivals have appeared to have had a group hug, methinks Max and Bernie no like!!..

 

Excellent point Ian.

But I expect the innovative teams to keep thinking of new things ... the others will then copy and in most cases be that little behind. Sometimes though being innovative can cause a disaster of a season, so it is a balancing act.

McLaren, as others have said, were hard done by, simply Bernie/Max playing polictics. Silly stuff. I wish McLaren would say fnck off to F1 ... it would completely ruin the sport, very similar to Ferrari leaving ... what a pity but I'd love to see it, just so Bernie and Max get absolutely FNCKED (for ruining my sport). McLaren versus Ferrari has been the story for so long, the only interest in F1, and yet one team is like the chosen child and can cheat and do whatever it likes, while the other the black sheep that keeps getting kicked in the face ...
Pete