355 Brake Fluid

It's not a dumb question...it's confusing nomenclature.

DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 are glycol-based brake fluids.

DOT 5 is a silicon-based brake fluids.

Mix silicon with glycol and every component in your braking system will gum up (or worse). DON'T!

"Tutela Extreme 5" is therefor a very, very bad name (i.e. version 5) for a DOT 4 fluid.

 

Getting ready to install my stainless steel brake lines. Other than DOT 3/4 fluid, any other tips or advice?

 

Get the 11mm, 14mm (or 9/16"), and 17mm brakeline wrenches: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137769133&postcount=17


Absolutley mandatory for the 11mm fitting.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137769138&postcount=18

You'll need channel lock pliers for the retaining clip.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137769148&postcount=19

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137769152&postcount=20

You'll *want* to use the inexpensive Motive power bleeder to bleed your brakes at each corner as you swap over to steel lines (Ignition On but motor not running, and be sure to tap the brake pedal enough times for the ABS pump to kick on as you bleed).

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137769162&postcount=21

Finally, with the Motive power bleeder still connected to your front reservoir, be sure to bleed your clutch to get rid of all the old brake and clutch fluid.

 

Front brake lines had the wrong fitting inside and will not work...Goodridge must of sent the wrong ones in the package. the backs fit fine...

 

I went with Stoptech and they fit fine...so yeah, something must have been shipped wrong since they should fit.

 

So DOT 3 or 4 is OK for the 355 I gather?

 

No, only use Dot4 brake fluid for your 355 but use a synthetic fluid

 

Excellent for track use and suitable for stree use, I use ATE Super Blue racing fluid in every car:

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3326&iorb=4764&utm_source=Sponsored%2BSearch&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=BROI

 

I haven't been able to find Dot 4 Synthetic anywhere locally so far. Is the OEM stuff Synthetic?

Edit: I supposed it is....


TUTELA EXTREME 5
High performance synthetic brake fluid for hydraulic braking systems and power controls of cars. The product features a high boiling point (+300°C) and a low flowing point (up to –40°C) as well as excellent anticorrosion, anti-rust and anti-oxidation properties.

SAE J 1703, SAE J 1704, IVECO STANDARD 18-1820, FIAT 9.55597, ISO 4925

 

These glycol ether fluids are typically a by-product of the process used to make certain paints and varnishes. By definition, DOT 3 fluids must have a minimum dry boiling point (measured with 0% water by volume) of 401F and a minimum wet boiling point (measured with 3.7% water by volume) of 284F. That’s really about all the specification says as far as the performance enthusiast is concerned.

DOT 4 fluids are also glycol ether based, but have a measure of borate esters thrown in for improved properties including increased dry and wet boiling points. A seldom talked about characteristic though is that because of this chemistry, the DOT 4 fluid will have a more stable and higher boiling point during the early portion of its life, but ironically once the fluid does actually begin to absorb water its boiling point will typically fall off more rapidly than a typical DOT 3. By FMVSS116 standards, DOT 4 fluids must have a minimum dry boiling point of 446F and a minimum wet boiling point of 311F.

Does this make DOT 4 fluids better than DOT 3 fluids? Not always. Remember, the boiling points listed are minimums and there are DOT 3 fluids out there with higher boiling points than some DOT 4 fluids. The real differentiating factor should be that if you run a DOT 4 fluid you really should change the fluid more often than if you use a DOT 3, if for no other reason than the rapid fall off in boiling point with time.

We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast, but we’ll include them in the following table for completeness.


PROPERTY DOT 3 DOT 4 DOT 5
Dry BP (F)@ 0.0% H2O 401 446 509
Wet BP (F)@ 3.7% H2O 284 311 356
Chemical Composition Glycol Ether Based Glycol Ether /Borate Ester Silicone Based

As a trailing note on the DOT ratings, if your car was designed for a particular type of fluid (especially prior to the development of DOT 4 fluids), you should make every attempt to stick with that fluid! For example, if your car was delivered with DOT 3 fluid, the internal components of the system (seals, brake hoses, and fittings for example) were specifically designed and tested for compatibility with DOT 3. Because DOT 4 fluids contain a different chemical composition, the system may not necessarily react in a positive fashion to the borate esters floating around in the mix.

In other cases, just the difference in viscosity of the two different fluids may cause the seals to wear at different rates. What starts as an annoying squeak might eventually become a torn seal or worse. The examples could go on and on, but the message here is this: it’s fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort.

That said, when dealing with modern hydraulic braking systems a numerically higher DOT rating is typically considered to be compatible with a lower DOT rating (except for DOT 5, of course). Unfortunately, this same generality just isn’t true for most older hydraulic system materials.

 

DOT 5.1 fluids

Historically, DOT 5-level performance (specifically boiling points and viscosity) could only be achieved with silicone-based fluids. However, modern compounding has created glycol ether-based fluids which now meet DOT 5 bogeys in these key areas. Consequently, the DOT 5.1 moniker was created to differentiate between these two very different chemistries which both meet DOT 5 performance requirements.

In so many words, DOT 5.1 fluids are simply DOT 4-type fluids which meet DOT 5 performance requirements. Because of this, they typically can be mixed with DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluids without concern. In some circles, they are even referred to as ‘DOT 4 Plus’ or ‘Super DOT 4’ fluids because they are more similar to a conventional DOT 4 fluid by chemistry than they are to a conventional DOT 5 fluid. In fact, DOT 5.1 is essentially comprised of Borate Esters.

While it may not be obvious, the big advantage of the DOT 5.1 fluids is that they contain all of the nifty water-absorbing characteristics of the DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids while simultaneously providing for very high boiling points and relatively stable viscosity over a wide range of temperatures. The best of all worlds, you could say. The table below sums it up quite nicely.

PROPERTY DOT 4 DOT 5 DOT 5.1
Dry BP (F)@ 0.0% H2O 446 509 509
Wet BP (F)@ 3.7% H2O 311 356 356
Chemical Composition Glycol Ether / Borate Ester Silicone Based Glycol Ether / Borate Ester

(As stated earlier, the table data above contains the minimum properties for a fluid to be called a certain type. For example there are many racing brake fluids with Dry BP performance at or above 590o F and Wet BP at or above 390o F.)

So, what is the downside of the DOT 5.1 fluids? Like most things in life, the good stuff isn’t cheap. DOT 5.1 fluids typically cost three to four times as much to manufacture as a conventional DOT 4 fluids. There’s always a catch…

 

Nevermind, found it. Must have walked right by it at the store.

 

My Goodridge lines fit just fine, but I bought mine from Demon Tweeks, in the UK. One important tip, make doubly sure of the routing, particularly on the front lines, and verify that there is no contact or rubbing of the lines anywhere. If there is, "clock" or rotate the line in the hardline fitting to get it at the correct angle to not touch anything when you turn full lock left and right, then tighten securely. Do this with wheels on and car on the ground. Also, you need to check your lines once per year to ensure they are still correctly routed and not touching anything.

The reason I bring this up, is I recently had a ss brake line failure with a StopTech front line on my BMW. The line was lightly rubbing on the inside plastic fender liner...but had been doing this for 4+ year...it wore through the outer plastic jacket, then the ss braiding, then the plastic inner line failed...no brakes! Fortunately the failure occured in a parking lot and I safely stopped the car. I now have new lines, correctly routed so they touch nothing. Lesson learned....I never inspected them after the initial installation by a local race shop. So I have no idea of it was a poor installation or the line moved in the fixed mount.

 

Tutela is referred to as DOT 5 because the Europeans generally use the German TUV rating system and the Germans were smart enough to never authorize silicon brake fluid for road use because they saw it for the garbage that it is. Technically Tutela is 5.1 but since there is no 5 in Europe they generally do not differentiate. 5.1 fluids were designed at the behest of the manufacturers of ABS braking systems and it is designed to have a more temperature stable viscosity. In extreme cold some DOT 4 fluid is thicker than some ABS manufacturers want in their system. If you do not live in Fairbanks Alaska and drive your Ferrari in the dead of winter it probably will not be an issue.

For extreme use a good DOT 4 racing fluid like Motul RBF 600 or Castrol SRF is a far better choice than the Tutela. The Tutela seperates in the system like salad dressing and clogs passages. It is not a very good product.

 

By modern standards that stuff is very ordinary. By my own side by side testing at Laguna Seca in a Daytona that stuff boils in less than 4 laps. Even off the shelf Mercedes Benz fluid outperforms it.

 

Your recomentation of Motul RBF 600 or Castrol SRF is ok for a 100% street car? I usually change out my street fluids every two years, every couple of events with the track car.

I've never had a reason to switch from Super Blue, I do not have an "all out" race car either. Just a stripped 928 for track days.

Wow, Castrol is $70 a bottle? That's not going in the street cars


An FYI for anyone else, found this simple comparison from StopTech:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluidcomparison.shtml

"Finally, Castrol SRF is a racing brake fluid that is in a class by itself with patented chemistry and is, in my opinion, the best racing brake fluid on the market today"

That explains the cost!