6 Speed Vs. Paddles

I guess that means the F1 drivers are not manly-men. That will be a disappointment to them.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I guess neither of you know how to drive a stick.
You should learn, it greatly enhances the experience.

Back to F1, while this discussion is/was about street cars, I would assume that ALL race car drivers know how to drive a 3 pedal car.
I would not assume that all Ferrari drivers know how to drive a stick.

The last point shows who Ferrari is now building their cars for.

 

Fred- You continue to make really dumb statements. You did not even bother to look at our profiles. The first car I owned was a 1957 Porsche 356A bought in 1967. I had been driving manual transmission cars four years before that. You should learn to keep your mouth shut until you figure out nobody really cares about your narrow-minded view of the world. "Enhances the experience", indeed. Keep posting trash and keep digging yourself a hole.

Conversely, if you have something constructive to add on the relative resale of manual vs F1 shifters, welcome back.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

fred,it's obvious you know your way around a stick...
as for myself,i have owned at least one manual shift car at all times since i was 21 years old until last friday, when i picked up my first ferrari,and will have another in short order.i would have been equally happy with a 6-speed and i find both to have pros and cons.i feel every bit as involved driving with an f1 as a manual and i still determine when gears are changed.
have a good day,fred...i think i'll have my car take me for a ride...er,take my car for a ride

 

Terry if he was a real man he would drive a car with a hand crank and hand operated rear wheel brakes. The rest of that nonsense is for girls.

Just another closed minded technophobe who insists we should all follow in their narrow vision of right and wrong.

 

Brian- Affirmative. Lighting those acetylenes can be a real *****, though.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

As with any "option" that has an increased the price of the car, by the time you sell it the increase in value might be totally gone. Say a $6,000 option on a $150,000 car after 4 years. The price drop on the car will be so high due to deprecation you won't be able to jack up the price to claw it back. Even a fully loaded car compared to a base model in the Ferrari world won't make a big enough difference to decide against any options when you purchase the car.

Besides I checked into replacing paddles that fail... those little "tabs" are expensive.

Exactly. If you are already thinking of selling it, buy a used car that has hit the bottom of the market so your loss will be minimal.

 

I agree that driving a manual gearbox is becoming something of a lost art (in a relative sense -- still a lot of us who can do it, but the numbers aren't growing). And there are many classic cars that have automatics, so we should agree that a car does not have to have a manual gearbox to become sought after down the road. Where we don't agree is that an old version of software-controlled automotive technology will ever be sought after or collectible -- the new stuff is always better.

The 308/328 are pretty much ancient now in terms of automotive tech, but the 355 is a better test. Here's a model that is rapidly becoming an old used car, and probably the first technology-laden Ferrari to begin to "age out" as the no-tech 308s did some time ago. With the Dino/Daytona and Boxer/308/328, it was pretty a matter of the same old package in a new wrapper. The 355 and later cars changed that, so you're no longer looking at just an assembly of metalwork, gears, grease, leather and glass -- there's a lot of Intel inside, and the F1 is an example of this.

As a consequence, we all have a good idea as to how simple cars like the Daytona/Boxer/246/308/328 age. Their performance becomes dated, younger guys laugh at the tire/wheel sizes, and people buy them for their charm and nostalgia. The gearbox in the end-of-the-era 1989 328 is a close relative of the old 308 GT4 box. The gauges are similarly low-tech, and frankly in any of these cars you can disconnect and reconnect the battery without any effect other than the clock losing some time. Anachronistic, maybe, but kind of cool because of it.

It is unclear to me whether people will find the same charm with aging electronics -- i.e., if you can get a vastly better F1-style gearbox in the Audi R8, is there any allure to the jerky 355 or 360 F1 systems? I'd say not. And is there something about Motronic 2.7 that makes it more desirable than modern engine management software? There is not, anymore than there's charm to an old laptop computer.

Another loose analogy would be tires. Radials are better than the old bias ply. We all know this. In vintage car judging, there has always (in my experience) been an allowance for authentic size/make radial tires on classic cars -- it's a safety and performance issue. I know of no one advocating bias ply because they are "period correct technology". A car doesn't lose character because it has good tires, and these guys with $200,000 Porsche Speedster restorations aren't just trying to cheap out on rubber.

A contrast would be carburettors. These are inferior to fuel injection in many ways, but because they contribute to the character of the old Triumphs, MGs, Jags and, yes, Ferraris, they continue to be valued by enthusiasts. Yeah, there can be fuel starvation in the corners, and sure they produce a lot of smog and maybe make starting a bit harder, and aren't good for fuel consumption on the road or track. But they sound cool, so we cherish them enough to put up with them.

Now, back to aging Ferraris with F1. Is the 355 a pretty car? Absolutely. Is the 360? Many think so. But the old paddle shift systems may well be something akin to the automatic on the 456 GTA or the self-leveling suspension on some of the older Ferrari grand tourers (400i, IIRC, and several others) -- an expensive albatross and, in this case, expensive to swap out for something more modern. The problem isn't that the car has two paddles on the steering wheel: it's that all the circuitry downstream of those paddles contributes nothing to the driving experience that the newer, better versions can't. No one would take an old F1 system over a newer one, given the choice.

Therein lies the rub.

 

+1. Agree 100% Jon.

But I'm biased. I just love that manual shift in a ferrari as well as the gate even though I only have an OHOS. Can't beat a good heel toe change down. When you get it right, its a great feeling. Something you don't get with the paddle shift. A computer does it for you.

 

good analysis as usual,jon
however,futures values imho will boil down to two basic facts:

older cars-beautiful,exciting and rare

newer cars-beautiful,exciting and plentiful

transmission,color,options, even mileage will help sell a car sooner,but as the years pass the price range within a given model will diminish

 

While I am not a F1 hater, I do still prefer the regular manual.

Shifting yourself, and using a clutch pedal can never be replaced, it's more involving and more fun.

Not to mention how cool the gate looks.

 

1) Umm, why do you think I would ? Zoiks.
2) Nice to hear that is your opinion, off topic though.

 

Apologies if my point was unclear. For the buyer of a used model who prefers F1, higher depreciation of models so equipped would have the additional benefit of lower purchase price.

 

I always love your retorts!

Well, I look at it this way. Some owners (probably not the ones on this forum) are scared of the "Lost art" of repairing and tuning webers. I know. I had a shop for years and a lot of people walked in looking for and asking about a Ferrari (normally a 308) but didn't want carbs because FI was "easy" to replace parts the Bosch off the shelf parts, more efficient on gas, and gave more power. Personally, I like carbs and I think their argument against them is illogical but it seems to many like black art in a digital world.

I can honestly see the day in the future that someone buys an exotic (of today) with a manual gearbox and all of his buddies say.. "why? F-1's are faster, involves race car technology, and its easier to drive. Are you nuts or just a masochist?"

I like classics too but I also like and appreciate the AC of the modern car so I don't sweat like a pig while "enjoying" myself. Want proof? Even the mighty stripped down Scuderia comes with it standard. I don't see the reason why F-1 boxes would be viewed any differently.

Times are changing. In the 60's the E type was the "world's best crumpet catcher". Today it's a Prius. 20 years from now, the Prius may be what the 57 Chevy is to many today: an iconic image of where they lost their virginity -- complete with funny LCD displays and Ipod connectors that will look to them like we view an 8 Track today. Exotics may well and truly be "out" -- dinosaurs of an age of cheap gas, excess and greed.

I think the biggest problem for electronics is actually replacement parts for the long haul. With something mechanical, it's possible to replace or rebuid it. When you have something electronic, that's much more difficult if not impossible. When parts run out or get so expensive that the car is worthless, that will impact used car sales. Paddles are more electronic so that may turn some off. Still, how many of us have tossed out their old Dinoplex for MSD or converted from points to electronic. Where there's a will, there's a way.

By the way, I'm not anti-manual. I loved my Dino and the 2 308's I've owned as well as my 3 Alfa Spiders. Today, I drive my Mini Works with a 6 speed. I just like the F430 and it's F-1 gearbox for different reasons. I think you can love both for different reasons.

 

I see the point Fred was trying to make and can appreciate his stance.......

As Ferraris continue to be made and newer models are created the essence of what Ferrari is to me gets lost. I am only 33 yet, to me, Ferrari is a gated shifter with a manual transmission.

To me, when F1 transmissions came out they were cool but only cool like a novelty item. Kind of like the Thunderbird that just came out. Cool when you first see it but, as you look at it more, you realize that it isn't that cool.

IMO, F1 and Tiptronic are one in the same to me and they both neuter the driving experience.

 

I bought an 360 with paddle shifters. I began regretting that move in about a week. I imagine this would be the perfect setup on the track, but I felt like I wasn't involved in the driving experience. I quickly sold the car and got a 360 with a manual tranny. For me, this was the ticket. I am older and was weened on manual cars. It is what I grew accustomed to. But I do think it intensifies the driving experience. Ferrari is making the newer F1 transmissions so part of the performance design, that it might be a matter of time before the manual transmission will not be offered. I hope not. Shifting through a gate is fun.

 

flappy paddle gearboxes are for wankers. i agree with Jeremy Clarkson, and prefer a manual gated shifter.

F1 boxes are full of proprietary unobtanium, and repairing them will be an expensive nightmare.

ps, now that i think about it, to us Americans, the old muscle cars with the Muncie Rock crusher, or similar 4 speed manual box ALWAYS carry a premium in price over the automatics. flappy paddles to many of us in our 30's are nothing more than fancy auto boxes, and none of the guys i know my age want or desire a car with the flappy paddles. perhaps the younger generation will embrace them, but then they will be the ones having to fix the things when the cars are 25+ years old.

 

Never fear, I shall save you from such thoughts - they're far too perilous.

Agreed - I'm sure they give the driver much more absolute control, but somehow make him feel less involved.

Although admittedly, my experience of directly comparing such systems in the same models is only on 'normal' cars (BMW MINIs, BMW 3-series)... ...but I've always more thoroughly enjoyed driving cars that had a clutch and a proper stick shift. When I eventually get my first Ferrari (many years from now), I'd be prepared to pay a little more just to make sure I get a manual transmission.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

A new and improved sequel to my foregoing retort:

Times are changing, as you say, but some technology is timeless. An example would be the wood-burning fireplace, which was used to cook and heat houses in another century. People still enjoy a real fire with logs, even though any modern climate control system is going to do a better job. 100 years from now, humans will still equate fire with warmth. That doesn't mean ye olde hearth is going to best your Lennox, but for some reason we still like wood fires.

I don't think a manual gearbox is quite that primeval, but there is an analogue relationship between what you do with the pedals and gearchange and what happens in the machinery. (Ask any new driver who has popped the clutch and stalled...) You can shift fast, or more gently, and put the engine revs where you want them. Going into fifth feels different than going into first. This is a huge "mental-map" problem with F1, by the way. In that sense, a manual gearbox is not "less modern" any more than a steering wheel would be. The "best" way would be for the car to control its course based on a destination you set in the navigation system -- then you would need no steering wheel.

Manual gearboxes are also relatively stable technology. While next year's F1 will improve upon this year's, and the F1 tech from 5 years ago is now obsolete, you could argue that any manual box built since the advent of synchromesh back in the 1950s is more or less the same -- the difference comes in the makers' selection of ratios, geometry of the clutch mechanism, etc. So my argument about F1s being in demand in the future is precisely that in the future people will want whatever F1 system is most new and improved, and will look back at our current F1-shifted cars as rubbish.

Again, I'm not anti-technology. For example, old crappy a/c: there's no charm in that. When you turn the little knob or push the lever to the blue end of the scale, yes, the air should be cold. I don't smile at the a/c in a 246 and say, "oh yeah, now that's the musty lukewarm air and sweat-stained shirt smell I remember..." Likewise, the rubbish ignition systems of the Boxer, 246, 308, etc. don't contribute to the driving experience of those cars. (See my tire analogy above.) However uprading those bits does not change the fundamental driving experience. (And I admit there are some people who couldn't care less about the "driving experience" -- but I assume if you're registered on FerrariChat you aren't among them.)

But, when tech dilutes the experience, I'm anti technology. One example we can all relate to is power steering. My 328 has none, yet it has the perfect amount of resistance/lightness -- it's appropriate to the speed you're going, so it feels exactly right. It just makes sense to my brain. On a car where power steering is done badly (Buick springs to mind...), the technology has removed the low speed effort but at the same time robs the driver of a satisfying connection with the pavement. Mentally, it doesn't make sense.

But, by far the most important rebuttal here: the E-Type is still going to catch more crumpets than a Prius. I mean, c'mon...

 

Jon- The latest thing in manual transmissions is automatic rev matching on downshifts, seen in sequential shift racing transmissions for some time, and now introduced on the Nissan 370Z and some GM cars. Instant Nuvolari for those, and there are many, who have never heard the term "heel and toe". On the Z, you can turn the system off and still match revs yourself, not sure on the GM cars. Most late model six to eight speed automatics now offer rev matching on downshifts as well, and have locking torque converters operating over a much broader range of conditions than just top gear cruising. With the dual clutch transmissions, the distinctions between automatics, manuals, and semi-automatics become less and less.

One large difference between the older F1 cars and the newer ones is software/ECUs. An example is the faster and smoother shifting on the Challenge Stradale and 575M HGTC compared to regular 360s and 575Ms. This was mostly an ECU/software change. In the past, Ferrari ECUs have been arcane, monolithic devices. Now the newer ECUs are programmable to put in patches and make updates, just as we have done for 35 years in fighter aircraft. As more hobbyists and professionals come to understand the workings of these ECUs, I think we will see updated ECUs capable of smoothing out and speeding up F1 operations on older cars. We already have remapped ECUs capable of raising HP on just about all Ferraris from the 456 on. It remains to be seen whether there is enough money to make it worthwhile, but money does not always drive these kinds of solutions.

When I started flying the F-111D in 1974, it was the most advanced avionics aircraft in the world with TV displays and a digital computer complex containing navigation and weapons delivery software, all written in assembly language to save computer space. Each aircraft had two 16K computers inside line replaceable units (LRUs) 2 ft long and about 9 in square in cross-section. Both required a continous flow of cooling air or they would overheat and both boxes were absolutely filled with electronic components. When we retired the aircraft in 1996, one of the LRU boxes was gone and the other contained a single card with several orders of magnitude more capability than the original boxes. Early Ferrari ECUs were the equivalent of those two big LRUs and I think there will be updates eventually for the older ECUs, just like there were for early digital computer aircraft. At least I hope so.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Some people argue that self starters ruin the driving experience, some argue syncronized transmissions do the same, yet others say the same for brakes that are not operated by hand. It is all a matter of what particular place in history you feel comfortable of freezing technology because "THAT" was best.

Guys in their 50's lust after muscle cars. In their 60's lust after post war cars and in their 70s after prewar cars, 80s brass era cars and on and on. Just accept different people see different attractions in different things and accept it.

It gets very tiring hearing whats "Right" and "Wrong".

 

I don't agree.

Automatic transmissions have been commonplace on most cars for, what, 50 years or more? And yet we still have stick-shift cars. There have been various flavors of stick shift tried... 4 speeds, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, cars with seperate overdrive gears, and much more. But for many many years, the stick-shift with a foot operated clutch has been the choice of manual transmission.

Preferring a stick shift isn't freezing automotive technology in time the same way as it would be preferring drum brakes or syncro-less transmissions. Those were all advances that added a lot while removing nothing. The same can not be said for an F1 transmission.

I happen to think Fred had a great point, and the bashing him is unwarranted and unprofessional... on a track an F1 transmission is a major benefit. On the street, it's likely more about playing boy racer than anything else. They are fun to drive, but many people still prefer a stick-shift, and not because they have some sort of warm memories of days gone by.. not by a LONG shot... many people just prefer them because they are, without question, a more engaging driving experience.

Not to say more engaging is always better, but for some people, it is.

 

great post, but i do have one comment.

the problem i see with the tech we have today is that so much of it is proprietary. i work in Aerospace, and i see constant problems with troubleshooting and working on electronic systems where someone else had the rights, patents and so on.

software and "cards" are a pain in the butt to work with, especially when you have to ask and pay for the ability to see , repair or troubleshoot the code. sometimes the vendors are no longer around, and you scrap the system. License issues will be a huge issue in the future.

i seriously doubt Ferrari, Lamborghini, or even Nissan are going to give you all the software to work on these systems. someone will have to come up with a legal work around, or the software will be pirated and the work will be done illegally.

i would rather rebuild a manual gear box when the time comes, than try to get parts and software for a flappy paddle gearbox.

time will tell.

 

All the shifty talk reminds me of my very last job 35 years ago (before going into my own business) which was driving a cement mixer with dual transmissions. A five speed main and a four speed secondary, each with it's own stick and no synchros. At the time, the manufacture of such setups had already been banned because it was all too easy to miss a shift and end up with both trannies in neutral which could be a very unpleasant experience with a full load and a steep hill. It was a challenge to operate. You could either triple clutch or not use the clutch at all and, of course, you had to match revs very precisely. You would think that experience would make me hate stick shifts forever, but I'm glad I had an opportunity to experience perhaps the most difficult to operate tranny ever made. But I am happy to have just one stick in my Ferrari with scynchros as well.

Dave

 

Mike- For sure Fred had a point. Anybody who does not select a manual shift transmission is a not so strong Richard (think about it). Bashing him was easy and fun, as it is with most of his ilk. Defending him does not do you credit, and the vast majority of your posts are knowledgeable and credible.

Reaper- Good thoughts.

Taz
Terry Phillips