The one thing you learned/did that made you faster?

Well Mike, it helped me, being smoother that is, but I'am only talking about me a kart, I suppose it's what you define as in being smooth , In F1 JB is considered a smooth driver, LH aggressive, and in a head to head I'd put my money on LH, so I suppose I have to bow down to your reasoning..Arghhhhhh.......

 

What.... ...

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you!

The problem is the "smoother is faster" mantra is repeated so often to so many newbies, that they have this vision of braking into a turn but never locking up, making one smooth turn of the wheel to get them to the apex, then feeding out the wheel as they feed in the gas, and this will all be one beautiful smooth motion. So they strive for that. And the only way to achieve that is to be going a lot slower than you could be going.

I remember the first time I was in a fast car with a fast driver (Justin Bell in my Viper on a road course). he looked barely in control... constantly jerking the wheel back and forth as we exceeded traction, on and off the gas like crazy, constantly adjusting how much brake he was feeding in and exceeding the level of grip, then backing off, etc.

Then I realized as my own skills improved that "smoother is faster" means it LOOKS smooth from the outside... but on the inside, you're going nuts with the wheel and pedals pushing right to the limit

 

I think being smooth isn't a bad thing... because in order to get to that last little bit of performance, you have to be able to be comfortable and relaxed and know what the car is doing.

To be honest, I was amazed at just how bad alot of novie "racers" were... I've done racing schools with guys who had no concept of why you can't brake and turn at the same time (at least, not as much as you can if you do them seperately). I saw so many bad drivers and I can see that for a lot of guys, focusing on trying to just be smooth would be a great helper. Not to say only bad drivers can benefit from trying to be smooth, but I think once you can get to the point where you're whole trip around the track is one big melody, then you can crank the volume up to 11 and turn it into some death metal driving... I find that when I am racing, I am constantly toe-ing the line between traction and no traction. I am always trying to brake later and later, turn faster and faster, and accelerate earlier in turns. Along with all this, I'm feeling the tires... when they are working I'm pushing more and more, and when they are going off I am seeing how little I can back off and still go fast.

I have no idea if I look smooth from the outside, but it sure is a hell of a lot of work inside the car! Not big movements, but jerks on the wheel when I feel it stepping out, constant modulation of the gas and brake as I'm accelerating and braking. But it's equally possible I suck at racing

I will have to keep an eye on Jenson, I never actually paid much attention to any of his in-car footage, but I did notice Lewis is a very input-heavy driver.

That can only mean one thing Steve... I am obviously as good as Lewis Hamilton, right? That has to be it!

 

I think it's the other way around... I think "smoother is faster" is the intermediate stage. You start of slow with jerky movements... you progress to smoother being faster, then back to jerky movements

Check out in-car footage from guys racing top series' in anger. They are constantly jerking the wheel and gas.... even in F1, you see the throttle graphic on screen and they are getting on and off the gas and constantly testing the limits of traction and seeing how far they can push.

It works for me at least.

I liked your Bruce Lee quote too... "don't think... FEEEL".

 

This is the only thread to which I've ever subscribed, and I receive the nightly e-mails containing the updates. I must say, I'm really thrilled with all of the input and advice in here. Just want to say thanks to everyone who's contributed.

I've heard the 'smoother is faster' mantra and found it to be true one night while driving home in the rain. I don't mess around in the rain - not after getting into an accident years ago because I misjudged my speed and distance. Anyway, taking the usual route home, I was finding and hitting apexes - but doing it all in what seemed like slow motion. I noticed that my apex entrances were all smoother. With more time to consider the turn, I was able to better decipher the best entrance and proceed accordingly. The only problem was the 'slow motion' of it all.

Now, when I'm focused - really focused with no distractions - I'm faster, but not necessarily smoother. My gear, throttle and steering input is constant. Mundane street cars give vague feedback, but front wheel drive offers a lot and is easy to manipulate. I'm active in the cockpit but body roll is gradual and the jerky motion that was once present in my driving barely shows itself these days. My efforts are blurry and may seem hurried, but to the outside observer, things are smooth.

 

You aren't driving fast enough if an observer can view your driving style.

 

LOL...!

I meant that people in other cars will observe smooth motion, whilst passengers will witness something entirely different.

 

A person who did some chassis setup work for me and a former crew chief once said, speed is the ability of the driver to drive at the limit of a vehicle which is as wide as the thickness of a piece of paper and laying the paper flat. He was holding an 8x10 sheet.

 

How can I not respond to this fantastic thread?! LOL
What a great discussion! Thanks all!!

And FatBillyBob sneaked a post in on me while I was writing this one that is VERY insightful. It is indeed a cycle as the only way we really learn is by pushing limits, making mistakes, implementing corrections, and raising our limit - thereby restarting the cycle. Excellent!!

I hope I can dispel some mythology here and still actually find agreement with everything that's been said. You may think at first I am just talking semantics here but hear me out and then judge. Let's see if I can call the common ground here...

First off, smoother IS faster; period. The smoother your inputs, the less violent weight transfer occurs and the more consistent your traction curve. Now, this is not to say that when one is at the limit of traction that input controls are held constant (i.e. not moving the wheel, etc.) However, it's been indicated that there's jerking of the controls going on and reactive corrections from overshooting limits, and that is simply not smooth OR fast - at least as fast as it could be.

As someone who is/has been and now coaches top level race drivers, I can tell you they (top level racers) will agree with me here. And as for SRT_Mike's ride with Justin; Justin is a friend of mine and I used to work with him at his racing schools and I was asked to slow down so as not to make the boss look bad... by the boss... (did I say that out loud? Sorry Justin. )
I was faster simply because I was smoother. Unsmooth vs. smooth. Get in the car with his dad and look at the difference in driving style... DB = smooth, JB = not as smooth. DB = race winning legend, JB = nice guy racer. Nothing against JB at all intended here but if we're going to use a ride with him as a reference...

John Paul Jr. is another great example, simply because he admittedly "only knows one way to drive - flat out" (his words, not mine.) JP is someone who, when he drove (he doesn't at all anymore... sadly), he drove at the limit - always. (Including on the street, in rental cars, etc. but that's a story for another bedtime...) And yet, you'd never see a lot of jerking or sawing, or pawing at the controls, he's just scary fast and super smooth. As a matter of fact, JP is one of those who is so in tune with what the edge feels like that he'd be way scary fast and hardly moving the controls at all - much like what we teach in DEs!

Tommy Kendall, another - you won't see TK jerking anything in the car when at the limit... Just smooth, fast, ...and usually sideways hehe
(You know I luv ya TK! not that you'll be perusing here or anything...)

Anyway, here's the deal:
Smoothness mostly comes from looking WAY ahead and planning WAY ahead, and using light, controlled, relaxed inputs - however many there are. When we are below the limit of traction, this looks like a constant set on the controls unless we've chosen the incorrect path through that section of track, at which time a correction is necessary.

As we reach the limit of traction though, things change. Predicting, reaching and staying at that limit REQUIRES lots of experience and attunement to one's kinesthetic ability to know when the limit is about to and has indeed been reached. At that point, a good driver starts to explore - pushing the edge to keep the car just there. When we are reactive in our corrections, we are behind the car and this is not smooth, nor fast. When we are asking the car to do just that little bit extra/more by adding to an input and step over the edge and need to reset and ask again, this can be very smooth and fast. We are controlling the latter, where the former is dictating to us.

The difference here can be witnessed by watching a driver's actions. A smooth and fast driver will use smooth, precise inputs that are wandering but not jerky - balancing on the edge. A driver who is not smooth will be jerky and dialing in big and sudden changes in REACTION to bouncing over the edge - and then has to wait on things to settle down before 'bouncing' again - which is why this driver is slower from a laptime perspective than a smooth driver. Now, I do want to clarify here that the faster we go, the quicker we move the inputs. Obviously, testing the limit at 200MPH physically looks different that testing it at 100MPH but smooth still wins over jerky every time.

Watch in-car video of Schumi, Prost, Senna, Gordon, Stewart, PJ Jones, Fangio III (wish I could find some good in-car of Fangio!), etc. etc. etc. They are usually moving the wheel, throttle, etc. in a predictive, smooth manner, not a jerky, reactive one.

My final point is that in the DE world, the "smoother is faster" mantra is preached to get drivers through the basics safely and to have them understand where speed comes from. Once at a certain level, say a rEvoultion Driving Clinic or Racing School (shameless plug), or in actual racing for instance where the limit of grip is expected to be explored regularly, then we no longer say "don't saw the wheel" but instead say "continually test the limit by asking how much you can get away with, deal with the answer and then live on that limit"
This is not sawing the wheel in reaction to a gross overstep... it's testing the limit. It's much smoother and intentional...

After all, tires (tyres...) get the absolute most amount of traction when they are just beginning to slide. It's the job of a good driver to find that limit of traction and live there smoothly in order to go fast. Do it jerky and unsmoothly and you may live through it but I will be passing you as you do.

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Chuck, amazing post, thank you for taking the time to contribute. I have a question...

What is the difference between these two:

It seems like one says that it's okay to delicately bounce over the edge, while the other suggests that aggressively bouncing over the edge is no good. Is it simply a matter of that...? Being delicate at the limit as opposed to aggressive...?

If so, how does one achieve that ...zen...? It takes aggression to get close to the limit, no...? Or is there a whole transcended level of driving that I cannot right now fathom...?

 

Great question NNO!
And the answer is yes, and then some. It IS a matter of the difference between being delicate vs. aggressive when at the limit. AND it is also the difference between being intentional & predictive (ahead of the car) vs. corrective & reactive (behind the car.)

The former is knowing that you are likely about to exceed the limit and dialing in corrective input consciously even before results show up (because you know you are on the edge before you step over) whereas the the latter is pushing hard somewhere near the edge only to find that you have stepped well beyond it and now must take immediate corrective action to compensate before things get really violent or ugly.

An example that comes to mind is this: Driver 1 = smooth, Driver 2 = not so much...

Driver 1 drives into a turn with high entry speed, trailing off the brakes as he/she turns the wheel keeping the car right at the 100% line of traction. While in the turn, Driver 1 inputs a little extra steering angle to shorten the path through the corner and test the limit of grip... it's not there and the car suffers a subtle understeer. So Driver 1 opens the wheel back to previous steering angle and tests again. This occurs until it is time to open the steering and exit the corner. (This same scenario could occur with throttle, etc. but steering makes a nice and obvious demonstration.)

Driver 2 enters the same corner at the limit and dials in an aggressive steering angle to immediately pitch the car and go for the shortest line. He/she asks for 105% of traction and physics steps in to administer a quick & punitive response - the rear end of the car attempts to overtake the nose. Driver 2 immediately reacts to this with a large and corrective negative steering angle (counter-steer) to keep the back end in check and then attempts the previous aggressive steering angle again (both to test the limit of grip and to stay ahead of the pendulum effect that most assuredly is headed his/her way.) Again, the rear end lets Driver 2 know that Sir Newton is turning over in his grave, and thus the cycle repeats... until it is time to open the steering and exit the corner.

While both drivers are indeed moving the steering wheel back and forth, Driver 1's motions are smaller and smoother than Driver 2's.
Driver 1 is testing intentionally and subtly, knowing that the response from the grip question is likely going to be 'not yet, patience Daniel-Son.'
Driver 2 is testing the limits aggressively and saying 'bullocks the rules, gimmie everything you've got and then some and I'll burn that bridge when I'm on it!'

Both methods will likely get you through the corner but to explore why Driver 1 is all to happy to pass or out-qualify Driver 2 is to notice that Driver 1's line is an efficient and possibly closing (flattening) arc through the course of the turn (testing using subtle understeer) while Driver 2's line is widening and creating a longer physical path through the turn (testing using oversteer), thereby creating a greater distance traveled at or below the same speed as Driver 1 and potentially slowing overall average momentum because the entire car is being dragged into this situation.

For the right-brain techie's in the house:
Driver 1 is smoothly requesting more than is available to create a sinusoidal test at the limit of grip that is small in amplitude such that a predictable, controlled outcome results. Driver 2 is aggressively commanding that the limit be crossed using a much larger amplitude that results in a reactive, crisis management-type cycle that is overall less efficient than Driver 1's approach.

And this doesn't even cover the difference in preserving equipment that exists between Driver 1 and Driver 2's approach...

At the end of the day, it is NOT about driving as fast as you possibly can; it IS about driving as efficiently as you possibly can. Smoothness = Efficient = Fast, plain and simple.


Hope this helps and answers your question!
And, yes, I do tend to be a bit long-winded. I'm just very, very passionate about helping people go faster!! Can you tell?

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Thank you, Chuck, for a wonderfully detailed explanation.

And this, I assume, takes years of practice...?

Long-winded is great...! Your input is undoubtedly aiding many people here.

If I may, I have a question not related to the current topic - but you seem like the perfect person to ask. So here goes...

I don't understand, nor have I ever experienced, understeer in a rear wheel drive car...? I am unable to fathom how, in a turn with the rear wheels pushing, the front tires would break traction before the rear tires. Can you explain how and why understeer happens in a rear wheel drive car, and how someone can replicate this effect on a closed course so as to better prepare for it...? Thanks.

 

In some cases yes, in some, no - it really depends on the person/driver and how much time they spend at the track, on a skidpad, etc.
Experience is certainly the teacher here though, no doubt.

My guess is, you have indeed experienced understeer and perhaps were unaware of it. It is actually quite common and production car manufacturers tune their designs for understeer first, as it is generally seen as safer and usually corrected by lifting off throttle or braking - slowing down.

Anyway, to your question - Scenarios that create understeer:
* If you are in mid-turn and get on the throttle too soon, too much or both, you lift/unweight the front tires and they begin to slide ... understeer.

* If you enter a turn with too high an entry speed (i.e. don't brake enough or jump off the brakes instead of a smooth release) and/or begin to turn the wheel too much or too soon, thereby exceeding the 100% rule, the front tires give up and you get understeer.

* If you drive into a corner that either transitions to or is already in a downhill, the pavement is falling away from the nose, lightening it up, so if you do not correct this with frontal weight transition (lift and/or brake) then you can understeer. Turn 14 (Roller Coaster) at VIR is a prime place for this to happen.

* If you simply dial in way too much steering angle, understeer will occur unless you are just flat out going so slow that the front tires grip, no matter the angle or aggression of change.

* A welded differential in a stock car can cause push (understeer) when lifting off throttle, especially on a banked track/turn - very counter intuitive and surprising the first time it happens to you. Makes for quite the exciting ride... get on throttle, take the weight off the nose - push; get off throttle and force the drive line straight - push (regardless of weight transfer). Damned if you don't, damned if you do...

There are other situations but these are perhaps some of the most common.

A lot of times drivers only associate with oversteer and are unaware that it is sometimes caused initially by understeer transitioning into snap oversteer. This situation comes from the front tires sliding until the rolling resistance finally slows the car enough for them to get grip but the momentum energy is still there and has to go somewhere, so it pivots around the outside front tire that is now getting grip - creating snap oversteer.

Hope this is helpful!


Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Well, actually understeer usually comes from going too fast or at least attempting to do so - there's no weight on the nose so we're probably in the throttle more than we should be... OR, we've broken the 100% rule by adding steering angle without slowing down. Either way, it's not a matter of going slow enough to manage understeer - it's more a matter of we should have slowed down and didn't.

As for 'throttle steer' ~ what we are usually doing when we describe throttle steer is adjusting the angle of incidence to the turn (how steeply we are comin' in) by lifting off-throttle to initiate rear-unweghited oversteer as its pretty controllable - simply stop it by repressing the go pedal just BEFORE one wants the rear to take set (the trick is knowing when that is...) Much the same technique as your friend in the video's spin # 2; only INTENTIONALLY, and less drastic! LOL He could have stopped that spin by getting back on the throttle - even with his late arrival to the party.

And you are absolutely right on that spin... You hear the wind slow and see the rear of the car get light about 3/4 - a full second before he realizes he's in deep caca. By then, for him it's too late. You can also see that his head goes down the hood line during the spin, so he ends up WAY off track (velocity had a say in that too). Quite unlike spin # 1 where he kept looking where he wanted to go, so it was over quick and he ended up pointing in the right direction. Had he not stalled it, he could've put together a Hollywood (Danny Sullivan) on that one. Good eye there fbb!

It's rare that we talk about throttle steer in which we mean we're power oversteering (inducing a loss of traction through spinning the rear tires) - unless we're drifting and then THAT'S the object, of course - because the remedy is less precise. As is evident in spin # 1. Also, that spin was compounded by the fact that he'd just crossed a crest and the car became somewhat unweighted front-to-back in succession. A situation in which one does not want to be on the throttle hard in a C5 when the rear crosses the crown... as is well displayed for us all to learn from.

So, all THAT being said, when we are throttle steering, we are usually closing the arc... and yes, we're losing velocity. It's a compromise we choose to make judged situation by situation; continuously.


You get good kinesthetic feel and situational awareness from first having a well taken care of (or good gene pool) CNS, coupled with a good inner ear, experience, a lot of discipline, experience, confidence, experience, and a willingness to make mistakes so you can learn from them. Oh yeah, and then there's experience too... and opportunity - to get the experience, of course.
And then there's the intuition... you have to learn to actually pay attention, then have the guts to trust it, and THEN actually execute from it AND THEN follow through.
Which supports confidence when you get it right and where the willingness to learn comes from (remember that mistake part?) I'm sure you get the idea.

Practice, practice, practice... And practice with confidence whilst knowing one's own limits. If you don't know where you are, you certainly can't determine where you'll end up... The key is to exceed one's limits in controllable steps - which is optimal learning.

Man, I'm wordy today! LOL

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Thanks Chuck! I've been reading all your posts with great interest.

I don't think that's what we're referring to in this thread. The technique you're describing is what I'd refer to as TTO -- trailing throttle oversteer. Which can happen by accident (coming in too hot and having an oh **** moment and coming out of the throttle abruptly) or intentionally (to point the car after you have turned-in but need to tighten the radius).

I think what fbb meant is the technique, generally or perhaps always in a sweeper type of corner, whereby rather than using steering you use small changes in throttle to adjust the attitude (would it technically be yaw?) of the car as needed ... by small amounts, not abruptly as with TTO.

 

Absolutely, mousecatcher!

Thanks for the clarification. TTO is a form of throttle steer and when referring to the execution of a lift to induce a change in direction towards the inside - you got it - the techie term and what most call it is indeed TTO.

Modulating throttle to adjust yaw angle without changing direction - simply (and subtly) moving where the weight is focused in the chassis - is not really steering, so I'd call that weight management but can certainly see where one might derive and call it throttle steer. And that'd be fair, too. It would be a technique that we would doubtfully attempt while hovering over at the edge of limit of traction (which is the context from which I was speaking based on fbb's mention of opening the arc, and where this all seems to have started) but valid just the same; however, as long as we're talking yaw angle only, it would not close or open the path's arc/line and from a sheer technical perspective is not steering. In such an instance, we're only where the weight is focused - say for adjusting slip angle (which is in the realm of steering and why it is fair to call it 'throttle steer'), setting up for what's next, or to get a weight transition started ahead of time.

Another example of throttle steer using applied throttle is intentionally lifting the nose to induce understeer. Much less used but a tool that is handy when appropriate nonetheless. Limited traction driving such as Rally is a place where one might find such a technique used more readily.

As a slight aside: With today's modern fly-by-wire throttle setups in many production cars, such subtle changes can be quite challenging if the driver's idea of breathing on/off throttle looks different from the car's... but that's turning down a different conversational road altogether. hehe

Excellent conversation here!!

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Thanks fbb!!

I truly hope we meet in person someday as well. I always love meeting people with whom I've experienced great online conversation. If you come to track events in the SE US such as VIR, CMP, RA, RRR, Summit Point, etc., I teach classroom (and right-seat) for a lot of racing and performance driving schools in the area as well as put on Driver Advancement Program clinics (rEvolution Performance Driving Enhancement) when I can, at said and other tracks. Perhaps we can meet through such a venue!

I'd like to say we could meet at a ride-n-drive program somewhere as I work as a pro-driver, facilitator & MC at those (think AMG, Audi, Lexus, etc.) but the world of ride-n-drives has turned into a ghost town for now with the auto industry in such turmoil. Everyone's playing 'wait and see' for now.

Indeed, around that meeting point: I have been thinking over the last 1-1.5 years and a LOT lately about creating some 'Supercar Training' events at tracks to provide both basic and advanced skills training structured exclusively for those owning Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Lotus, C5/C6 Vettes, Vipers, etc. - you know, cars that are capable of getting people into REAL trouble. Private, focused events that are well outside the HPDE norm (much like my rEvolution clinics while focusing on supercars.)

I wonder if that is something that anyone here would be interested in. Given enough interest, I am inclined to actually move on this notion and invite some friends to help who are excellent instructors and coaches (there is a major difference between instructing and coaching...I'd invite those who do both well) to help out. People like Peter (ProCoach here), etc.

Changing subject a bit:
It seems I saw elsewhere here that you are racing a Corvette T1 car... excellent car!!! I love C5s and C6s and have a LOT of experience in them (have owned a couple) and congratulate you on your wise and fine choice of what is in my opinion the best bang-for-buck sports car available; nicely done!
In the last couple of years some really nice contenders have shown up but my heart's still with the Vette!
Oh, and BTW - I LOVE your quotes in your signature!! LOL Great stuff!!

Thanks again for the kind words!

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Facilitator, Pro-Driver, Instructor & Coach
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

+1, I'm in the same boat.