That's right and we'll blame it all on you!
How do you get you car in position without making any turns? Do you have car dollies that work on grass? Or do you plan the trip from the trailer to the position on the lawn with perfectly equal and opposite right and left turns? Or no turns - they let you back the trailer/transporter right up to the spot so you can roll straight off with no turning at all? Yes, you are kidding.
Some tires do in fact have a mark to be aligned with the stem. But you are supposed to rotate the tire on the rim to get into the closest possible balance without weight. IOW, the mark is merely a starting point, not something thats written in stone. And its utter insanity for anyone to believe otherwise. I could see a judge gigging someone for having a pound of wheel weights on one side of the rim before ever thinking up something as silly as how the tire is rotated to the rim. Thats just plain nutty. What are these judges really bored or something, laying awake at night dreaming up new ways to irritate everyone? Sure dont sound fun to me.
I was asked to judge a local show once..... "OK, so just for the fun of it I get to find every flaw on one of my customers cars and tell them how 'bad' it is?" Nope. It's like being engaged in a PPI inspecting a local car for an out of town buyer.... one either lies or is getting paid to tear apart a friends car in an attempt to find price negotiation items. Bad business. My last attendance to Pebble was in the mid 80's, my last concours was at Watkins Glen in the late 80's. We lost first place because the printing on the Cavis hose "was too bold and readable"... I then retrieved the spool of hose we brought with from the Semi....directly from Cavis. Judging in these events needs to be done by folks like Brian with a working knowledge of what is really correct, not an opinion of what is prettiest. Me.... I get more enjoyment whooping them at the track, there is a place for both mindsets.
Boy, did I strike a nerve with you? Talk about an emotional response. I try to never make forum posts personal, but if you want my resume I can direct you to my website for your info. I was born OCD have been preparing exotic cars for concourse competitions for the last 15 years so when I post "my" opinion it is with real world experience; I'm not some teenager sitting in my mothers' basement giving advice when the only Ferrari I've worked on is a 1/25 scale one. First, I do agree with you with "stupid" judging; and that's coming first hand where many of my cars lost when they should have won, and even when they won and should not have. In a perfect world, every judge should abide by the strict guidelines of that particular event. But we do not live in a perfect world. People are the judges and people are emotional creatures with their own preferences. So when I prepare a car for concourse I do everything to maximize the owners' chances to win (not just apply a $5k wax with my bare hands to impress him); that is my job and what I get paid for. So when I have the wheels off for cleaning and I have a choice of aligning all of the center caps the same way or not, why in the world would I choose the latter? Even if it makes no difference in the points, it just looks better (even on you daily driver). Matt
Hilarious! Hope you are well, we met when you left your F40 or other Ferrari at one of Motorcar Gallery's warehouses with Martin for a hurricane a few years back. The concours nonsense is beyond beleif sometimes...if I had my own track I would replace the haybales with clipboard holders (ok except a few of the judges whom I like) and the extreme nitpickers: how totally lost at sea can one get?....so many times at concours you hear conversations that are total nonsense...whereas in a pitlane or a paddock you alomost always meet people who have their head on straight. I realize some are not able to drive well, do not have the skills or the eyesight and fall back on concours but to push it to that degree of nitpicking is utter nonsense. Here is some medication for them...hope it works. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rEFxUxxpU Just my 2 cents. best regards, Marc
Once at a concours a Judge remarked that there was dirt under my headlight covers. Lloyd Ruby happened to overhear that remark. "That's true but it is from Le Mans." He answered. I've never detailed any of my cars. I've cleaned the road dust they accumulated on their latest drive and vacuumed the carpets but that's about it. As for the tires I did once show one of mine with her original tires which actually did have their original air but after that I put those wheels and tires into storage and mounted a set that were a bit safer to set off on new adventures. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The Porsche crest pointing towards the valve stem is standard procedure in the P-car world. I agree any judge knocking off points for the tire mark not being 100% in line with the valve stem is taking the job a bit to serious. Funny thing is, that is not always the best position to have the tire for perfect (least amount of weights) balance. I agree with a few others, this thread points out why I have never participated in a true concours. On the opposite side of the spectrum are the car show lawn chair people. A few years ago, a friend of mine who restores Corvette's entered three customer cars (he restored) in the same concours. The car that should have won took third place because the owner cleaned out the inside of the exhaust tips during the final detail. The judge(s) told him extra points were awarded for drivers over trailer queens.
Well said. From a far lesser-experienced perspective, I've dabbled in concours for about fifteen years (as participant and general enthusiast), and aligning the cener caps with the valve stems is a pretty commonplace practice. This simple visual detail takes only an extra few seconds once in a great while, stays that way as long as you choose, and is one of many subtle details of presentation that add up subconsciously to a neater overall appearance of a car. Compared to the hours people spend obsessing over paint and carpet, one would think this simple little detail would be automatic. (Edit: I started this original reply before hacker-p posted, didn't check back -- sorry for any redundancy) When I see a car with this kind of attention to detail, it is in some ways an indicator that this owner is likely very concientious and fastidious with his car. If I go to look at two cars for sale and one has the center caps aligned and the other doesn't, I take a mental note about the owner, and factor that as another little potential indicator as to how the car may have been overall treated and what kind of attention it might have received. Regarading marks on tires, I can't believe that on this great and knowledgeable forum there are so many people with such loud mouths who don't know something so simple. The yellow dot represents the "lightest point" of the tire, and usually when aligned with the valve stem will result in needing the least weight to balance. I'm not sure whether it is the lightest spot in terms of having the least rubber mass, or through some kind of dynamic balancing. (again, sorry for any redundancy to previous posts) The red triangle is the high point, and if you have a slight low spot on the rim (or your Dodge Caravan has a slight bend in the wheel), you should rotate the tire to put the high point there. Some rims have a dimple or mark from the factory identifying their lowest point (we're talking thousandths here). I think it's kind of funny that people obsess about having their wheel weights all on the inside but don't notice their center cap emblems. Sometimes you can get a more precise balance if you allow weights on the outside; as there is a functional reason to do so, I would be more concerned about center cap alignment and less concerned about visible weights. Best regards, Tony (who prefers driving them more than showing them, but also enjoys showing them and thinks bashing the concours perfectionists is as childish as the frivolous behavior they are bashing)
Never heard of it myself, but it reminded me of the following shot of a pre-production Alfa Romeo 8C Spider, taken inside the Maserati factory in Modena: http://b1.s3.p.quickshareit.com/files/63994433d4e0b.jpg The valve stem is perfectly aligned with a yellow dot on the tire. Mind you, that doesn't seem to help much with balance, judging by how many balancing weights are on the wheel. Now I wonder what the two red dots are for...
Thank you Tony, much appreciated: learning something new every day's good. I suppose that particular tire has two high points, then.
Dear Ferraristi, No no....I think you misunderstand. At home, I jack up the car and align the valve stems. I drive to the concours and the valve stems are usually quite lined up....yes, if you spin your wheels or take an aggressive turn, you will misplace the settings. Trailer the car? ....no way, my TR is a daily driver...used in all weather. Shamile Freeze....Miami Vice !
Matt, I think the emotion in Brian's response is frustration. I know that's the emotion I have when I read stuff like what you and others have described. (It seems to be a Porsche thing. You would think owners and clubs of a German marque would be more prone to doing things by the rules, not just shootin' from the hip.) The frustration comes from knowing there are written rules for these kind of things yet some judges completely bypass the rules as if they don't exists. This wild ass maneuvering by the people put in charge of enforcing the rules makes it hard to take the whole thing seriously. When smart people do dumb things it causes frustration. It's my goal in life to correct this untenable situation in Ferrari concours judging. By filling in the obvious gaps in the rules there will be no, or nearly no, question as to what is acceptable. I know that is the equivalent of fighting city hall, there are some very powerful at the top of the judging pyramid. But it took a mere child to announce to the world that the emperor was wearing no clothes. -F
Here is one thing that Ferrari says about wheel/tire rotational orientation: "If for the balancing of the wheel it is necessary to use a counter-weight of more than 80 grms. (3 ozs.) deflate the tyre and rotate half a turn on the wheel. When the counter-weight is more than 60 grms. (2 ozs.) it is recommended to apply two separate half-weights, one each side of the rim." That is a quotation, including poor punctuation and spelling, from the English column of pages 81 and 82 of the 365 GT 2+2 Operating, Maintenance and Service Handbook. If a judge says differently, then he's wrong, at least for 365 GT 2+2s, and maybe should be judging something other than Ferraris. Tom Kizer
Thank you for your response; I now understand where Brian was coming from. I was very active in judging in the Porsche world for some time and unfortunately become very turned off by some things I've seen as well. One specific event comes to mind; we were judging a Porsche event where there were several cars which were very equal in preparation but one in particular was exceptional. He wound up second because the judge scoring the interior deducted an abnormal amount for something silly. After the event the owner came to me (after being blown off by the interior judge) and asked me why he lost. I had to bite my tongue and tell him that I scored the exterior and by far gave him the highest score and that's all I could share with him. But I will never forget the look on his face - it was the look of someone who just had something precious stolen from him. I believe that most people do not mind being beaten by a better car, but they take it very seriously when they lose unfairly. When I judge at concourse events, I (and encourage other judges to do the same) always introduce myself to the owner and thank them for being brave enough to have their car judged. After the judging, I explain to them any deductions I noted and show them what I deducted for. This takes all the aura of mystery away and made sense to the car owner (they also felt that it was not personal, but you were just following the rules). I particularly like the system that the Porsche Club of America uses at their national concourse (called The Parade). After the judges score the cars, the car owners get a chance to judge the judges. If one/any particular judge(s) are marked low by a majority number of people, they probably won't be invited back next year. Now that's a balance of power. Matt
This whole debate just seems silly to me. Wouldn't it be more fun to go drive your car than worry about such insignificant things?? Perhaps I'm just weird.
Dear Ferraristi, Aw....it's just part of the silly fun in owning a Ferrari. ....like you haven't cleaned your engine with an old toothbrush. ...yep, that be me! ...like I said, daily driver with 48,500 miles. Shamile Freeze....Miami Vice !
