Senna Documentary

Is that because you concede those examples are correct or do you not care about F1 before the 90s?

It was a pretty decent car, but not near as good as the all conquering Williams.

So we are supposed to believe Damon Hill was that great of a driver? Great guy, but not the talent level of Schumacher.

Once again, we are supposed to believe that Damon was that good?

If Hamilton and Alonso had not been fighting and stealing points from each other, do you honestly believe Kimi would have been Champion?

I never used this year as an example, it is obvious the Brawn is very superior to the competition up to this point. The point is it takes a special talent to win when your opponent has the same car or better car, thus my respect for Prost and Lauda at McLaren, Senna and Prost at McLaren, Senna vs. Mansell 1991, Schumacher vs. Hill 1994-1995 as well as Kimi vs. McLaren in 2007. As Mario Andretti has often been quoted about his 1978 title, "even a monkey could have won in that car", could apply to Mansell in 1992, Prost in 1993, Hill in 1996, Schumacher in 2002 and 2004.

 

Concede ? hardly. I just don't have to go back that far to make my point. 20 years in a sport is enough I would say, a driver has to have a top car to get the WDC. Anyone who belittles a drivers Championship on the grounds that he had a "superior car" is pretty much talking out his arse.

In order to conquer you have to win, right ? Honda was on par with Renault that year, especially down the stretch.

Schumacher was excluded from 1/4 of the season in '94', I don't care who you are, if you get excluded from 1/4 of the season other drivers will come into play. I guess you could say that Hill was 3/4ths as good as Schmacher in '94'. The point here is that Michael's car certainly wasn't a lesser car, it was the best in '94' BUT many people think that the car was illegal and I happen to be one of those people. The '94' Benetton Ford is an interesting subject, a subject which I have a great deal of knowledge, I should start a thread on the subject.

The point is that the best car will win, and the "superior car" theory doesn't hold water. Hill's talent aside, his car couldn't match Scumachers in '95' Now in '96' he turned the tables, with only his teammate to beat, once again the best car wins the trophy.

Any one of 4 drivers had a shot at the trophy in '07', what's your point ? Massa took points from Kimi as well, so what. A lesser car doesn't win races down the stretch of a season to take the Championship, once again the best car wins the trophy in '07', I fail to see how it could be looked at differently, unless a total Mclaren fanatic want's to say their car was better but thats just splitting hairs. Ferrari won with Kimi, that pretty much is that. If Kimi didn't have a "superior" car he would never had a chance, right ?

I never said you did, I used it as an example, and once again it makes my point. Even though the season has a way to go, it's as clear as the sky is blue that Button's car is the best this year. You could put Damon Hill in that Brawn and he would win races. It's looking very unlikely but if somebody beats Brawn to the trophy they will do so in a better car. Again, regardless of any drivers level of talent, he needs a superior car to challenge, so saying that "well, he had a superior car" is just hogwash.

Well, finally I can agree. You finally changed from "superior" to "same" . I don't buy the "better car" thing (obviously) it takes special talent to win a WDC, period. If you don't close the deal somebody else will beat you. Hill knows this quite well.

 

I'm not confused at all. It seems that you're giving Senna credit for being brilliant in '91' right ? Why is this ? Senna won because his car was better that Mansell's, finishing all but 1 race. Mansell's season was over after DNFing the first 3 races in his "clearly better" car. Senna was there to get the wins when Mansell crapped out, nothing "brilliant" about that, he had a better car is all.

Clearly it's you that's confused, Berger did nicely that year but also suffered from mechanical failures, even beating Senna "and his brilliance" a few times. Berger finished no worse that 4th place in every race he finished, chalking up 4 runner ups and 1 win (Japan) Berger had SEVEN DNF'S ! Only one of which was his fault. He was clearly the #2 driver though if his car had not left him stranded 6 times he could have made Senna's job a lot harder that year.

Look, nobody is going to confuse Berger for Senna, but saying he couldn't keep pace is flat out incorrect. Mclaren was clearly a better car, especially the last 4 races, nothing "brilliant" but just a tad better than the rest is all. Senna won his trophy fair and square in '91', give him credit but don't go overboard with all the "brilliance" he got the job done, no better than any other World Champion.

We aren't talking about Prost though, are we ?

 

The '94' Benetton Ford was found to have launch and traction control that could be activated by the driver, this is a FACT. Benetton had a lawyer who got them off, and to this day it stands as one of the worst cases of cheating in F1 to be overlooked by the FIA. This subject is worthy of it's own thread, it seems that quite a few folks are not properly informed about the huge fraud involving Max Mosley and co.

 

Do you have ANY kind of source that would confirm this? I mean something you call FACT, I'm sure can be easily referenced, no?

Have you read Steve Matchett's book "Life in the fast line"? He was a Benetton mechanic that year (on the other car) and talks about everything. No word of a launch or traction control.

 

The Williams was a faster car than the McLaren, especially from Canada on. Had Mansell not DNF'd the first three races of the year, he would have been champion easily.

Oh really? And just when were these "few times" that Berger beat Senna? You mean in Japan when Senna moved over for him so he could win? Other than that, he finished ahead of Senna only one time the rest of the year. Senna outqualified Berger 13 to 3. Yeah, really close fight there.

During the last 4 races of that year it was still a close fight, Patrese took pole in Portugal and Mansell was in the fight the whole way were it not for his spin in Japan. There's no sign that the McLaren was better than the Williams at that point of the year as you say. It seemed pretty even to me.

Prost got the 89 Championship by turning into Senna. 90 was an eye for an eye and in reality it wasn't even aimed Prost. Case closed.

 

Of course it can be referenced, try doing a little research if the subject interests you. I guess with the time you take spreading bazillions of posts on Ferrari chat you need others to do the research for you, no spare time, right ? Actually, a lot of material is being deleted because of father time but I'll give you a couple of articles that deal with the subject. Theres much more info out there if you take the time, there's more to life than Ferrari chat...


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3273623&type=story

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/12/26/which-blatantly-illegal-car-won-a-championship/

Those 2 are OK but why not hear from Max himself, check this one out,

http://www.grandprix.com:16080/race/r736fripc.html


A Quote from Max :

Mosley: "Well, in the case of Benetton in '94, we found the software for launch control, but in the aftermath of the Senna accident, we'd given the boxes back and we were not in a position to prove that that system had been used. They swore it hadn't, so really, it was very difficult for us to proceed at that point, so we took the next best course which was the lay the facts in front of the press and let the team answer questions. It was really all we could do".



Basicly, Benetton was caught by an FIA tech inspection and found to have traction control that could be activated by the driver. They argued that the system wasn't used !!! Sure pal, I believe that ! Also, they cheated by taking the fuel filter out of the refueling hose nearly killing the driver and pit crew, they pleaded guilty before the FIA after the season ended and were let off !!!!!!

If you want more info try googling George Carman, he was the lawyer who got Benetton off scott free even though they pleaded GUILTY of removing the fuel filter in the fuel hose ! There are some good articles out there but they are disappearing slowly, heres one,

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=57753

 

You don't get points for Qually, Senna was the master of the hot lap but during the race itself he was quite beatable. During the races Berger was running ahead of Senna quite a few times. When his engine didn't blow up and he was ahead of Senna, Mclaren would give him a slow pit stop that got Senna by, he was #2 and he knew it. As for Senna moving over in Japan, you seem to have forgotten that it was Berger who first let Senna by to protect him from any attack, he did this only after being told over the radio that Senna would concede on the final lap and did so.

Statistics are one thing, reality is another. Yes, 13 to 3 would seem no comparison, but that's hardly the case as I've pointed out, Berger was beating Senna occasionally when his engines gave out, and when they didn't he was held up in the pit. Regardless, he was quite fast, never finishing worse than 4th place, not exactly off the pace as you say. Consider, Bergers car DNFed 7 times to Senna's 1 and yet Mclaren still won the constructors Championship ! If Burger hadn't done so well when his car finished you can forget that trophy. Lesser cars don't win WCC's..

It may have been close but Mclaren was clearly the better faster car. Aside from Portugal, Mclaren was on Pole the last 3 races with Berger taking pole 2 times. Honda supplyed updated engines and Berger was clearly making the most of them when they stayed together, taking pole in Spain and Japan. In the last 4 races Mclaren drivers were qualified in the top 3 every race with Williams only getting one driver in the top 3 the last 4 races.

You could say that the Williams was more sophisticated on paper, more gadgets and what not but it turned out to not be the better car in the end. Championships are won down the stretch, Honda pulled out the stops giving their drivers more HP, resulting in both Championships. Everybody and their pet dog gives Senna too much credit in '91' , nice job but no better than anybody else's World Championship.

..

 

Indeed, and my apologies, although the original thread wasn't worth much IMO. I do quite enjoy a spirited debate, Cheers.

 

Thanks for the references. Those are solid. Point taken.

There is?

 

amazing Senna in Monaco GP
Flaying Lap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOOaarWAgFs

 

Getting back to the documentary, why would anyone have to play Senna? Its not a feature film, is it? In fact, if the creators decide to use an actor to play Senna, then I'm not sure I'd want to watch it... Let his images, memory, and most importantly, his driving, speak for him.

 

This is not correct. As part of the ban on driver aids in 1994 all teams were required to submit source codes to the FIA for forensic examination. Despite several requests to Benetton for these source codes it ended up taking the threat of a ban from the FIA before Benetton handed theirs over. What they found was explosive. Traction & launch control (1994 French GP anyone?) had not been removed (as all other teams had) and could be activated in the car by a predetermined series of button and lever activations. Once the engine was killed, the software conveniently wiped away any trace that it was ever there.

Benetton's defense was that the code was "too difficult to remove" despite it taking programmers in other teams less that a day to remove similar systems from their cars, and that the reason it was hidden was so it could not be accessed accidentally.

In the end the FIA could find no proof that Benetton had actually used it so then got off with a slap on the wrist and a fine...

 

Here is an FIA press release outlining the launch control situation at the German Grand Prix.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=655

 

A clip from the forthcoming Senna documentary film from Working Title / Universal is up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY2Jr_7Ngyk

Supposed to be released in Japan next month but mixed reports of world-wide release dates from same day as Japan to early 2011.

 

Yep that is how I remember it too.

It is sad that where ever you look in MS's F1 history there was a lot of cheating involved, and the same now with Britore. I'm sure as he gets old and more reflective on his life he will regret some of his actions, and we are not talking minor private actions here, but large very public blatent cheats.
Pete

 

<scrrreeeech> what the hell was that? that was the thread swerving off topic again.

 

It looks great doesn't it? After spending a weekend at Spa with a bunch of Senna fanatics I'm really looking forward to seeing this. I hope it gets a theatre release rather than going straight to dvd.