REPORT: FIA will reject teams conditional applications

Are you referring to Balestre or Napolean?
Seriously there are serious systemic problems with the way F1 is organized and run. For a multi-billion dollar enterprise its run like a third world kleptocracy.
We may have to destroy the village to save it.

 

IMO, common sense.

You're right, how can any judge make any decision with any amount of credibility unless he/she was present when the crime was committed. Unless there is an actual witness to a crime the crime or event basically didn't exist.

That is your opinion and I disagree. IMO, unless you're just being blind, one can have a credible opinion about someone do to paying attention to their actions and what they say.

That's fine by me...doesn't really matter either way. I'm just offering my opinion...which just happens to often differ from yours.

BTW...I've already given you my personal opinion gained from my knowledge....Max needs to go and Ferrari and the FOTA need to continue to stand their ground against him.

 

I'm getting a bit tired of choosing sides among billionaires. Anyone know any good cribbage chat sites?

 

I think Balestre and Napolean were the same soul. Kleptophobia, isn't that the fear of backing into a cold door knob while nude? I forget, maybe thats Knictophobia. I am sure someone here knows.

 

No problem with disagreeing, that's how we learn. Just no need to make it personal. You don't know me, so please do not make assumptions about me, I won't about you. Thanks.

For me, common sense tells me that unless I was an actual witness to an event, all I can or anyone can do is act like a parrot and repeat whatever we hear or read. Certainly you can draw an opinion, but to be honest you must be able to admit you could be wrong. I believe in the theory that when you put 10 people in a circle, whisper something in the ear of person #1, and have them whisper the same statement to the person to, say,their right, and that continues around the cirlce, your statement will probably be different by the time it gets back to you. Information can change the more it passes from one person to another. How many times have you seen news reports changed as new information arrives, or articles retracted for being wrong? For that reason, common sense tells me to take it all with a grain of salt, could be true, maybe not. But this issue of discussion has nothing to do with personalities. Except for a few here on this site that for some reason I do not understand try to make this personal. Its not, its business.

It is obvious you are an F1 fan. I think most here are F1 fans, but for me, that does not mean I support something that I perceive to be wrong.

I am not sure how you would justify the results if FOTA stands up against the FIA. This is not FOTA vs. MAX, it is FOTA vs the FIA. Without some way to bring new teams into the game, F1 will die. I ask you to prove me wrong, with fact please, not with words like you are blind, or full of hot air, etc. As I said you don't know me, so you do not know the people I know within F1 that I met from years as a photo journalist. The people I respect here on FChat know my connections, that's all that matters. Don't assume that I support Mosley or the FIA blindly. I do support some form of budget caps that entice new teams to F1 so if that's the FIA's position, which it appears it is, then I agree with it completely. That is my position since day one and has nothing to do with anyone's personality. I really don't mind if I am in the minority here, I really don't mind the obviously personal swipes at me from people that offer nothing more than criticism with no facts to support their point.

I believe in the budget caps because I do believe that 30% of the current teams will be gone by 2012, maybe earlier. No one has provided a more viable alternative to bringing more teams to F1, so for now budget caps sound good. Clint, look at the challenge I proposed to srtmike in this thread, I am very curious as to reponses based on fact as to how to save F1 if FOTA wins. I ask you to give it a try.

I look forward to your proposal.

 

Its looking like Max and Kim Il Sum were separated at birth

 

Ron:
I want you on the jury when I am tried for capital murder! If you didn't see it, you must acquit.

 

Agreed to some extent, but that big spending put them in a position to continually develop the car and obtain 3rd/4th at Monaco. That big spending will (let's hope) allow them to maintain being competitive and running faster and faster all year until they are eventually at the front.

 

Ron, I have never meant anything personal. If you mistakenly took any of my posts that way, I'm sorry. As I've stated before I feel one can have an opinion (even a credible one) about a person or event even if they did not personally witness the event or personally know the individual.

Of course I could be wrong in what I feel about Max and F1....even though I'm not. Ron, I never said or implied my opinions were gospel....just that they were my opinions. Are you trying to say that your opinions are gospel? You say that you get your information from your friends that have ties to F1. That's fine. Are those friends Max and or Bernie because if not then I think you might be getting your info similar to me...by what you hear and or read from others. Which is totally fine with me, I'm just not sure where you can say that your "opinion" is more credible than my "opinion"...their both just our "opinions". If I misunderstood you and you have not been implying that your opinion was more credible then I apologize. However, even if you are saying your opinion is more credible than me or others then that's fine too...I just disagree.

All IMVHO...
I do think this is more of a FOTA vs Max ordeal than anything else. The FIA is fine. Max and the FIA...not so much. He has degraded and damaged F1 far more than the economy has. I think some cost cuts are in order but not drastic ones. I too think that a FEW new teams would be good for F1...quality new teams though, not Billy Bobs Pizza Shop F1 team. Having more new teams for the sake of more new teams does not help F1. As I've stated before, Max's departure from F1 would be the biggest positive that F1 has had for many years. Many problems in F1 would productively work themselves out...including Bernie.

To me, it's really not that complicated.

 

OK, thank you for your words.

I running to the airport to return to the States, so just one thought: if all the teams had a similar budget, then I would assume to be competitive (and retain what initial sponsorship they have) even Billy Bob's Pizza (& BBQ Ribs) would be on par with the current teams that everyone seems to think are wonderful. They can even hire Alonso as there are no driver salary caps proposed. If a new team like BBP's hired an up and coming Ross Brawn, or used that one unlimited staff member salary slot to actually hire one of the current excellent engineers, I would think that this team in a matter of two seasons could be winning races or at least podium. I am not sure I am saying this with the correct words.

I do not understand why anyone looks down on these new teams. I think Luca is 100% wrong in his assessment. You'd think these new teams will show up with an open trailer, towed behind a 15 year old Chevy diesel Suburban. That's not going to happen! With equal budgets, its up to the engineers and drivers to make a winning car. With that in mind, BBP's could be on par in quality and performance with Ferrari. Look at Ferrari's start this year. No one really thinks that the Red Bull is equal in status of a Ferrari, yet the Red Bull is doing much better. So far. Nothing says one of these new teams could not perform as well as Red Bull.

The only reason I can accept that Ferrari does not like the idea of budget caps, is because they have a family of employees that would lose jobs. But I really doubt if that is their motive.

Anyway, that's it. I accept these new teams, they will be everyone's equal until proven guilty, and I think budget caps so far are the only solution presented that makes sense.

 

Ron, as much as do admire your positive outlook I think you put too much faith in the newbies. F1 is a very tough nut to crack and we've seen very successful teams hit the wall and die often enough to bring into question the viability a start up operation.
Many have mentioned the success of Brawn etal but as far as I can remember there hasn't been a new viable team in recent memory that hasn't come about by marrying an existing underperformer with lots of cash. The idea that someone can create a competitive team out of whole cloth is romantic but highly unlikely.
Budget cap or not (and who's to say that all these prospective teams can raise even that much funding in today's economy?) the existing teams will have a large advantage in the physical plant and operating systems which are vital.
What new team can afford a top ranked driver's salary? Which remember is over and above the cap many will struggle to meet.
Same question about engines. A spec Cosworth will not be as powerful or as reliable as a Mercedes or a Ferrari if it has to be produced in numbers sufficient to supply the new teams.
The pool of first rate head engineers and all the subordinate staff is not so huge that all the new positions can be filled with top of the line people.
In short few, if any, of the newbies will have the money to compete and if they do have the funds the resources are not likely to be available.
I wish it were otherwise but it isn't.
BTW Does anyone think that all of this hasn't occurred to those in power who cynically have suggested expansion just to counter the rise of FOTA?

 

+1 David

You said exactly what I was thinking. Except, you said it more eloquently.

IMO, it's hard to believe new teams would be even remotely competitive...even if all teams were on a similar budget.

 

Flattery will get you everywhere
Rampant irrational speculation is one of the charms of internet chat rooms but some of the things "responsible" people in the real world come up with put us to shame.
I understand that in negotiations positions that aren't expected to fly are put on the table but they should at least have some credibility.

 

Why don't they all apply to F2 and work their way into F1 - their expenditures would be considerably less and they might be more competitive - the winner each season could make the move to F1 if desired.

Carol

 

+2

Rampant irrational indeed, he said marching with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation.. LOL ..

+1 Oh a far to sensible a idea Carol..

 

Damn good idea Carol

And I agree the existing teams will have a massive head start, even with the pseudo ban on developement that would be bought on by the salary cap, you would have information previously gained that would give you a basis on which to base your 2010 car. The new teams wont have that, even if they get mid level staff from an existing team they will still need to start catching up as it where, and that could take 2 - 3 years. Brawn this year is succesful because they used Honda's Grand Prix staff AND Honda had started very early last year to build this years car. Now if a new team for next year, starts now and hires some staff from a Formula 1 team, and has a new car developed by say September, October at the latest - they might be OK.
If not they will find themselves filling the last 8 spots of the grid, they will probably not last the next 3 - 4 years while they play catch up, it is a incredibly tough business and the sponsors just wont stick around, unless you are doing well. Further, didnt we all go through this in the 1980's and early 1990's when we had all of the Cosworth engined, common chassised cars running on limited budgets. And none of them were particularly successful, Fondmetal, Pacific, Life, etc. http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/index.html
If you really want to know, and why would we assume the new teams will be anything but.
So instead the theory is, we stop the teams from being able to be the pinnacle of motorsport, so that we can make some other team competitive, why not instead make the top teams run with 4 cylinder engines, or three wheels or even make them race with only 1 hand on the steering wheel.

Tim

 

Group hug.

 

Cripes, if they need to fill F1 grids let F2 cars run with them for a separate championship like in the old days. Maybe we'd see some real giant killing then.

 

Hugging will get you even further than flattery

 

Dave I ain't hugging you forget it, Is and Carol well ok..

 

Hard to disagree with that.

 

Hmm, you two may be onto something...

 

I just cant believe that you guys are still stuck on all this BS. The championships are bought and sold and now the guys doing the buying and selling dont agree with the judges so there is a battle taking place. I know your guys dont want F1 to die but the reality is that it already died 2 years ago. No matter how long you stand beside the coffin and look at the corpse, it aint getting up.

 

Interesting points. David I don't recall saying that any new team would immediately go out and win the WCC. No doubt it will take time, even for David Richards. There will always be backmarkers. Like Ferrari and McLaren the first four races of this season.

So what?

I am not so sure that with similar budgets, F1 will be the same tough nut to crack that you would imagine. Just look at how a radical rules change for 2009 changed everything. So I don't think for one second I am being blindly positive, I just am open to the possibility that F1 may actually become a truly competitive race series. Not to mention survive.

So if I understand you and a few of the others, we don't have any new teams because they don't stand a chance, and we must protect them from harming themselves? Since when has the desire to try to be better than the current best been terminated? Isn't that the reason most go racing? Does that mean that in all motorsports, just because the economy sucks, we should assume that no new participants should join, and not worry about the loss of existing teams, also leaving because of that economy?

BTW, two of the teams that have entered can afford Alonso, Raikkonen driver salaries. Wurtz's Superfund, and David Richard's Prodrive. They also have the knowledge and first class race experience to at least put on a decent first year or two show. What concrete knowledge does anyone here have that at least one of these new teams might not actually give the old fart teams a run for their similar money?

There is no arguement that some of the items put on the table in these negotiations were on the surface, seemingly as you say "without crediblity", but I ask, do you know any differently? Do you know the facts that led up to such proposals as the two tier system? Do you actually know the intent of either party? I sure as hell don't. I wasn't part of these meetings, so I can only surmise. I find the the backpeddling of the recent FOTA letter to the FIA to be an invitation for a strong response. Totally irrational. But then, I wasn't present at these meetings. But I do not apologize if you consider my opinions "without responsibility". I think to assume anything in this negotiation is to be irresponsible.

Once again, how do you save F1, as you David have admitted is the priority, without the new teams? Especially when you know there isn't any major corporations out there to join F1 and save its ass. And you know there are current major teams that most likely will be leaving within 24 months. With those facts in mind, how do you even ask the question that the only motive is to "counter the rise of FOTA"? Yep, I would believe that is one of the motives, but what about the loss of exsiting teams? Seems to me that to the pocket book of Bernie that team loss is a more serious issue to be addressed.

Please answer that!

So when you get done with your group hug, answer these questions. Please. So far, all I read is really trite jokes, insults from some here that propose nothing, still no one is serious. No one seems to be able to answer these questions.

I appreciate your analogies, but give me a break David. Easy to say silly things, when you don't back them up with alternatives. All I do is offer an idea(s), and at least I explain myself, unlike most of the garbage I read here which is just based on insults.

Under these factual circumstances that you well know, how do you protect the future of F1 without new teams?