2004 360 FI Pops Into Neutral at Stop Light

yes, back to that rock Art! your engines won't even idle so what do you know! What do you use for release bearing in those overpriced pigs anyhow and they can still give out on the start line, LOL!
If you plan on coming back over with that USGPE lot you'll have to stay off here or we'll come and find you.

brian

 

I think what Brian was trying to say in his own gentle way is that the throw-out bearing is a constant contact type, as Dave Helms explained to me last year. I still select neutral at stoplights because that is the way I have done it for five decades in manual transmission cars. Some people do not like that idea either.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Nope, not at all Terry. The clutch is kept depressed by the computer when the motor is running unless it is in gear and moving. You can put it in neutral if you like but the clutch is held down anyway.

 

Brian- Learned something new. Always something different about a Ferrari, for sure. Will still keep up my old habit. Too old to change. Makes me feel like I am in charge, even if some computer is pretty much ignoring me.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Brian,

That's interesting, and new to me.

That would also imply that thrust- and throw-out bearings would be dimensioned accordingly.

My remark about these was more in a general sense following your comparison of holding the clutch down.

I am sure you have seen many examples of what happens to these items after abuse by a clutch-jockey.

If the F1 clutch works the way you describe (and I don't doubt the validity of that), maybe you could, when the occasion presents itself, post some pictures of the thrust bearings as used on the modern V-8's?

I also wonder why Ferrari would opt to operate the clutch in that wayin any other than 'launch contorl' mode. After all, the clutch in these transmissions is incredibly fast, and especially on cars that are being used predominantly in busy traffic (there must be quite a few to suffer this fate) it seems like a heavy trade-off.

 

Power to the people! I hate when the computer ignores me...

 

Dave- Welcome back. Had not heard from you for a while. Thanks for the help on my 575M dash. Hopefully completed next week, along with installing the Superamerica instrument panel.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

The thrust bearing or washers on the crankshaft are the same as they were on the 1st 308 engine or any V12 since the 250 for that matter. They are all the same.

The T.O. bearing is a different design but not any heavier duty than cars that preceded it either. I have replaced T.O. bearings on many cars over the years with drivers who never put the car in neutral at a stop and so was concerned when I discovered the 360 holds the clutch disengaged so much of the time. I have seen many badly worn out at clutch replacement time. I think the fact that so many get so few miles out of a clutch on the F1 car has saved many from having T.O. bearing failures in advance of a clutch replacement.

I have no reason to think that the clutch operates that way for any reason other than simplicity of operation and simplicity of programming. We were never told of that either in F1 school or in 360 school either here or in Maranello. I doubt many even know. I have never seen it in print either. I only found out by accident in diagnosing a 360 in about 2000 or 2001 for a warranty repair. The engine would just die at a stop from time to time. After I got it to do it to me I discovered it was not a motor fault but the clutch was engaging at idle while stopped. With your foot on the brake the motor will just stall. An SD2 will give you pages and pages of operational parameters to perform diagnosis. One of the line items is the clutch position. I studied it for every operational mode of the car. With the key on and with hydraulic pressure it is engaged. As soon as the motor is started it is disengaged. If you select a gear and begin to press the throttle it begins engaging and continuse to do so until the car is moving. At a speed of over a few KPM it remains engaged unless you select a different gear. If the car slows below minimum speed and there is no throttle applied it will disengage and remain that way whether in neutral or in gear for as long as your foot is off the throttle and the motor is running. If I leave the car running in the shop for an hour for testing or to just warm it up the clutch remains disengaged the entire time.

 

To be clear Terry I am not sure if the 575 is programmed the same way. I am talking about 360. I tested one once out of curiosity but do not recall the outcome.

If T.O. bearing wear is any indicator though I suspect it is the same.

 

Brian,

Thank you for the elaborate reply.

All is clear. The thrust bearing/washers are not a problem, and the t/o bearing is not a problem because the plate wears out before it fails and it gets replaced as a matter of course anyway when the plate is changed.

It all makes perfect sense now!

 

Brian- That is very interesting and, as typical of Ferraris, convoluted. I looked in the 360 OM (03 US) and it says while stopped, after only 4 seconds with no brake or throttle input, the system selects neutral. It is 90 seconds in the 575M, so there are some detail differences in programming. The 10 minutes number with brake applied while stopped for the system selecting neutral is the same for both cars.

Wonder why the system bothers to select neutral at all if the clutch is disengaged all the time? Perhaps to let the ECU relax from being instantly ready to engage the clutch? I do know if you sit at a stop light in neutral with your foot off the brake, the system will not let you select first gear without putting your foot on the brake. Learned that the first time I drove it in city traffic.

One other question would be whether the clutch engages if you speed up the engine in neutral? I would guess not.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

As a safety measure.

No.