Ignition wire / cap install question | FerrariChat

Ignition wire / cap install question

Discussion in '308/328' started by FamilyCar, Jun 10, 2009.

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  1. FamilyCar

    FamilyCar Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 26, 2007
    790
    Seattle, Wa
    Full Name:
    Peter Goodall
    After replacing the caps and rotors, my 87 Mondial is running very poorly. The best I can guess is that the contact between the ignition wires and the screws through the back of the caps is poor. I did not replace the 7mm wires on the car, although I did shorten them so that the contacts would create new holes.

    From the various people I've spoken to, the suggestions are:

    1. It is difficult to align the contacts with the core of the wire, so keep trying, and

    2. Slather the wires with dielectric grease, because that will help the conductivity between the contact and the wire core.

    Does anyone have experience with this? I can't see how it would be that difficult to align the contact and the core, since there is almost no wiggle room in there. And isn't dielectric grease NON-conductive?

    Any insight out there?
     
  2. M.James

    M.James F1 Rookie

    Jun 6, 2003
    2,721
    Worcester, MA
    Full Name:
    Michael.C.James
    You want to PM a Mr. Dave Helms....he re-did my entire wire loom/Cap/Dizzy Boot assembly using stock tubing/Cavis ends, and replaced the old Cavis wires with VERY nice Taylor wire.....my car started up and ran beautifully on first crank. He's the 'wire wizard' as far as I'm concerned....
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
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    Brian Crall

    Have never used grease and it is not needed. It is non conductive. You are correct.
    Even if the screw does not hit the core of the wire it will not prevent ignition. That situation is actually quite common in cars that run just fine. The spark will make the small jump required. It is not an ideal situation but it should not cause what you have going on. My first guess is that you have mixed up the wires and have the firing order off. After checking that get out an ohm meter and see what is going on.
     
  4. FamilyCar

    FamilyCar Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 26, 2007
    790
    Seattle, Wa
    Full Name:
    Peter Goodall
    Well, I've got to defend myself on the wires getting crossed up. They have the numbers on them, as did the caps I removed. So between transferring over the wires one by one and the numbers, I'm pretty sure they're all right. Also, it doesn't run that badly, just a somewhat rougher idle than it had before and a bit of a stumble when I give it gas.

    Is it possible it takes running a bit to allow the spark to open up a better connection though any residual insulation?

    Or could a hotter spark have somehow degraded the resistor core of the old wires?
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,288
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    If the wires are very old just all the handling may have broken down the wire internally. The wire gets pretty fragile when it is old. You might need to start replacing them. If you have an inductive timing light that can help look for bad wires. Also have a look and make sure the carbon center electrode is still in place.
     
  6. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
    3,218
    Bay Shore, NY
    Full Name:
    Andy
    +1
    If you aren't hung up on having 100% Ferrari wires why not swap them out for an aftermarket set? 20 years ago I swapped out my nice red junk for 8mm wires from a Speed shop. A Chrysler hemi has the longest wires of most v8s I think so that would be a place to start. Th 8mms went into the caps tightly but worked great. The looms were a little tight too but it all worked out and 20 years later I am working on lots of other things other than ignition. Yellow Excel wires might be a bit too garish but I found blue ones and they are just fine if not ready for concours. BTW I upgraded to MSD coils at the same time and have not had the high rpm misfire my car had suffered from at the time.
     
  7. t3thomas

    t3thomas Formula Junior

    May 9, 2008
    427
    North Carolina
    Full Name:
    GThomas
    I just recently replaced the wires on mine w/ ACCEL universal wires. They're 8mm w/ a red silicon cover. Putting the ends in the cap certainly took some time and a little diaelectric grease helped to fully insert them. After you get them in, be sure to check impedience between the plug cap and the corresponding distributor cap terminal.......should test as 0 ohms (no resistance).
     
  8. FamilyCar

    FamilyCar Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 26, 2007
    790
    Seattle, Wa
    Full Name:
    Peter Goodall
    Thanks for the feedback so far. I think I'm getting to the point of replacing wires, I just haven't determined how much time or money to put into it.

    I tested the wires last night with induction testers, the sort that you run along the wires--one that grounds to the body and one you just hold (and I suppose it grounds through you) As far as I can tell ll the wires have spark at about equal intensity. Jiggling them didn't affect the running at all, nor did carefully lifting them away from the others and the valve cover in case there was any arcing. I then disconnected one plug at a time while the engine was running, to see if one didn't affect the idle when removed--couldn't tell a difference there.

    Since the car was fully warmed up, my observation are: The idle is rough, it smells as if the combustion is poor at idle (which was the initial problem I was trying to fix), the car feels as if the spark is weak when driving, i.e. not very responsive to throttle position, and it seems to miss on one cylinder when running without being given much gas, such as coasting down hill.

    I'm thinking the next task is to test resistance. I assume this is an ignition problem, but perhaps something else was triggered? All the thoughts are appreciated. And I am going to check if the wires are crossed up, but haven't had the time yet.

    One note, I ran the car between replacing the front and rear bank caps and rotors, and when only the rear had been done there didn't seem to be a problem. I'm now hung up on it being the front bank, but don't have a lot to go on. Is it possible to test that by disconnecting the lead from the coil alternately from the front and rear banks and see which one runs worse, or will that be so rough that I can't tell, or even damage the engine?
     
  9. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
    3,218
    Bay Shore, NY
    Full Name:
    Andy
    I used silicone to lube the ends but grease would work too. Maybe its time to update my blue ones to the red Excel wires. Hmmmmmmm.......
     
  10. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

    Mar 26, 2003
    3,218
    Bay Shore, NY
    Full Name:
    Andy
    First, confirm that your wires are on in the right order. Then change or clean the plugs and test the car that way. If you still have a low rpm misfire check the plugs to see which one is the culprit. This should get you started. And FWIW, ignition wires can do strange things. I had a coil wire once that acted like a rev limiter - 4 grand was all it would do but the engine ran fine up to that rpm. If you really are bent on keeping your wires but trying to confirm they aren't the cause, you can inspect them closely in an absolutely dark environment. Arcing will show up as the spark jumps from the wire to the engine casting. Another trick is to spray the wires with armor-all. This gives them a layer of insulation long enough for you to tell if there is a difference in performance. If there is none, and you have no major arcs during the nightime inspection, you most likely have a different problem.
     
  11. t3thomas

    t3thomas Formula Junior

    May 9, 2008
    427
    North Carolina
    Full Name:
    GThomas
    A couple other items you might want to check would be that you have good, clean, dry contacts at the connectors for both of the timing sensors as well. The connectors are not water tight and occasionally if a bit of water gets in them it can cause irratic ignition issues. Also the plug extensions have been known to deteriorate and the spark will arch through to the valve cover before making it to the plug.
     

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