If you try to cut corners it'll come back and bite you on the ass! (As I have just found out) Ok, it appears that my engine might have suffered the dreaded oil pump tensioner disintegration as I can hear the "rocks in a tin can" at idle... as described in this thread (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=176755). Last year when the engine was out, I inspected the tensioner and everything seemed tight so I tried to save the 1300$ and left it as is. I have used a stethoscope all over the engine at idle and I have ruled out the alternator, the A/C compressor and the clutch release bearing. The noise is still difficult to pinpoint but sounds the loudest when I place the stethoscope on the front of the oil pan near the crank position sensors... tomorrow night I will take the pan out to confirm that it is indeed the tensioner... I don't even want to think about the other possibilities should the tensioner be fine but I figure removing the oil pan is a logical place to start. My question is: Can the tensioner be replaced with the engine in the car? It seems to be held by two screws that may or may not be accessible from under the car. Maybe removing the oil pump itself could free up some space. Thanks DF
Dan, Sorry to hear about this - I did the same short cut during my major and am planning on removing the engine again this fall to do this service. Unfortunately, the front cover has to come off as well as the pan to do the full upgrade. I think inspection is possible with a scope via the oil pan alone... I made the mistake of thinking I didn't need to do this because my VIN fell outside the range advised by FNA's TSB. Although this TSB was considered an upgrade at the time it now appears to be a bona fide issue with the 348, upgraded parts or not.
You should really consider the Hill Engineering bearings. They are, by far, much better that the stock parts. The dealers refuse to install them. Worth it. Jeff Pintler 89 348tb, 86tr
Is this part of a major service? If so, I did not know that. Good to know though because I am due next year.
Sorry Dan, I should have read more closely - you are wondering if just the tensioner alone can be replaced with oil pan removed... I would like to know the answer to this one myself. I know Rick (FandLcars) has had his nose pretty far in there lately - I think he might have some good input.... RICK where are you???
I know of 3 confirmed cases from fchat members with 348's. Is this statistically significant? Tough call, I think I will err on the side of caution and get mine done this fall...
Hi Troy - I only do have experience on my car, but I don't see any way to remove and install the oil pump tensioner without removing the front cover. The tensioner rotates on a shaft that is screwed into the back of the front cover. You can't slide the tensioner off, or install the new one, without having the cover off. There were a couple upgrades to these tensioners along the way, so unless someone is sure what version they have, it's best during a major to remove the cover and check the oil pump chain tensioner and also the cam belt drive chain tensioner. They both were upgraded over the years. I feel that even if you could change these with the engine in the car, it's still too difficult to set cam timing properly with the engine in the car, at least for the average backyard mechanic like me. You can just use the cam marks if you're sure they are correct (which they often aren't... one of mine was off 1/8" at least). But as Rifledriver, Dave Helm, and others have stated... this is just a starting point. May be close enough to run OK and not have problems, but you really need to use a dial indicator and degree wheel to make sure timing is right! So for majors, I'd always plan to remove the engine. This just makes it a lot easier to examine and check for any other problems that may be developing. For any of my majors, I plan to remove front cover, check and probably replace chain tensioners (it's not that expensive), get the water pump rebuilt, check headers carefully for leaks, adjust valves, all cam seals, check for fuel leaks, replace hoses (including the expansion tank hose and fitting that often corrodes under the induction system) etc. etc. Having the engine out just makes it so much better to make sure you can see in all the nooks and crannies and find any potential problems. Next major, I'm sure I'll also plan to use Dave Helm's wiring loom connection upgrade kit. See attached pic. PS - on the latest version of the tensioner and mounting shaft shown, there's a very small circlip that holds the oil pump chain tensioner on the shaft (not yet installed in this pic). Image Unavailable, Please Login
Agree completely with engine-out versus in for a correct job. The only reason Dan was wondering about it is because he just completed this past winter a very thorough major. Thanks for the input Rick. I'm sure Dan must have that oil pan off right now and inspected.
Ok, I took the oil pan out last night and what I was was expecting to see wasn't there... I was expecting pieces of the tensioner in the pan but it is all intact... and so I started to panic thinking it might be more serious... something did fail because there was a pretty big chunk of steel in the pan, but it's not from the tensioner. It's been twisted but I can't tell what that could come from... almost looks like part of a bearing cage but there are no bearings in the pan. I also found some tiny particles of steel (it does stick to a magnet) in the oil pan and also in the oil tank as I drained the oil. I thought it could have been related to a spun crank or connecting rod bearing but that would have made a lot more noise at idle... I took the oil pickup and the windage tray off tonight and everything seems tight. I'll try to make sense of it for the next few days but I'm contemplating doing another engine out on Sunday if I don't come up with anything... Anyone have theories that I have not though of yet? DF Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I would **guess** blindly that your pictured piece is a beat up oil sprayer. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137310621#post137310621
I would not rule out a piece of a bearing cage. I have seen that a couple of times. Does not mean the balls will follow. They can just randomly shift around in the races. If that is it, it is not good news. It can also be responsible for the noise you complained of. What we do see fairly regularly is the band from the lower end of the teflon valve stem seal breaks and finds its way south getting beat up on the way by valve springs, cam followers etc. If it is that, don't worry. Get a magnifying glass and get a really good look at it. If you are familiar with bearing cages and with the valve stem seal bands you should be able to tell the difference. Bare eyeball in the second and third picture it looks like there is a half round in the end that could be from the rivets between the balls of a bearing cage.
Hey No Doubt, Wow, I thought you might have it there but I went and verified that all the oil sprayers are there and intact... DF
The only bearing I could think of in this area is the one behind the chain gear... if it would be that one that failed, it would explain that the noise be loudest at the front of the engine (with the stethoscope) and that I couldn't pinpoint it because I couldn't get in high enough because of the timing belt covers. The gear could also be keeping the ball bearings from falling out. If that is the problem, then I would call that good news as it's a simple bearing replacement... What other bearing are you referring to that would make it bad news? Also, I'm not following on the teflon valve stem seal? Could you elaborate? Thanks as I do appreciate the input. DF Image Unavailable, Please Login
This is some of the junk that was found in my oil pan... the teflon bits of a valve seal: Image Unavailable, Please Login
But those are pretty big chunks... there must be pretty big openings (that I don't remember seeing) for those pieces to make their way to the pan. I was feeling confident that the chunk in my pan had gone through the chain/sprockets a few times to come out twisted like that so I was sure it was going to be a bearing from the front of the engine... now I'm not so sure. DF
Yep, just what Rifledriver said....had the same pieces in mine from the inner bearing the main drive pulley assmbly. Sorry to say......
..........Dan, I pulled my old parts from my engine out last winter and the bearing band that I have sure looks like your pieces. I found small pieces of a couple of roller bearings in mine but as Brian said, most of mine were still in place.......
OMG, did that pile of junk really drop out of your oil pan?! What is it about these motors? I'm gonna start calling mine the Italian Insinkerator!
I took the engine out last night... first time doing it with floor jacks... did it over three nights and it took about 5 hours (by myself). The first time I took the engine out, we were three guys and we had a hoist and it took 3.5 hours. I lost a good amount of time trying to see if the A/C compressor could somehow be pushed or held aside without disconnecting it but I finally gave in and disconnected it. It wasn't too difficult with the floor jack method and I even did it without removing the rear bumper. Tonight I'll start the disassembly of the engine and hopefully I'll find the source of the problem quickly. DF
I found the problem last night... it's bearing #11 in the diag below... I'll take some pics tonight but it's pretty mangled. Haven't taken the sprocket off yet so bearing #3 could be a problem too as it seems pretty loose. Also, my oil pump chain tensioner was pretty well finished, it fell apart in my hands... Should get my parts by next Friday... I'll post some pics tonight... Can anyone tell me what the torque value should be for the ring nut that holds the drive gear (#17)? Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hi Dan - you won't like hearing this, but the torque spec. that I found when I did my major is 93 ft-lbs! Luckily, Hill Engineering makes a ring nut tool that is not cheap, but the best way to go to get the high torque req'd on this smaller ring nut. Check with Daniel at Ricambi, who sells Hill Engineering eqpt. PS - as I recall, I used a wood block to keep the crank from turning while torquing this nut and anything else that req'd the crank to not turn. Probably other methods, but this worked for me. Best of luck with the work!
