Is it even possible for F1 to remain the pinnacle?

Interesting thought...

F1 has it in it's charter that it will be the pinnacle of motorsport with the fastest times on the track, and it is.


A breakaway series that wants to free itself from the technical retardation that F1 is imposing would certainly be a faster series with lower lap times, no doubt. Given a draconian budget restriction, how could F1 continue to be the pinnacle?

I know the obvious answer is that it can't... but since it is in it's charter, how would Max reconcile this?


The only answer I can think of is that F1 would say it's the pinnacle (and it would be - of FIA racing), but it would be just blowing smoke up the fans butts, since everyone would know it wasn't the pinnacle.

 

Good point Mike food for thought, Knowing Mosley he would come up with some BS like you stated ,I don't think they will split, though, Mosley is to make a statement soon.... so will shall see.

GO!! FOTA..

 

In their day, were CAN AM cars faster than F1?

 

Yes they were...but this is precisely what FOTA needs to be careful of...a speed and power arms race. CanAm while it lasted was fantastic, but was dominated by one team or another (McLaren, Porsche and to a lesser extent Shadow in its waning days). There still needs to be a "Formula" to follow to make the engineering aspects of the exercise a competition.

 

Unless someone starts an unlimited series such as the old CanAm, F1 will continue to actually be the pinnacle.

Of course, there may be different definitions of pinnacle. The old CanAm used slightly more technical aluminum NASCAR like engines for raw speed. I do not consider that the pinnacle. To me the pinnacle is based on engineering, and I do not for one heartbeat think you have to have unlimited funds to be on top with engineering. This year's F1 series proves that.

So if you think the only way that F1 can be at the pinnacle of motor sports is by its monetary spending, I would disagree. I think you will see all race series attempt to reduce expenditures over the next few years, the world economy makes this inevitable. From that perspective, even with budget restrictions, F1 will likely out spend all the others, and still stay on top.

 

I would hardly call the Porsche 917K30 twin turbo cars NASCAR like engines.

 

So you say the pinnacle is based on who has the best engineering.


And you think Williams, Force India, USF1, Manor, Campos, iSport, Superfund and such will out-engineer Ferrari, Toyota, Renault, McLaren, Red Bull, etc?

Based on what? They do not have a miniscule fraction of the resources that a large manufacturer does. They also do not have even close to the funding, so how could you say F1 will out-spend the others? That's already not gonna happen - F1 will have a 45 million euro budget cap next year. FOTA won't.

Clearly, F1 has already lost in terms of money spent and engineering. So if those are what makes a series the pinnacle, F1 clearly is no longer it.

 

Yes you are correct about CanAm at the end, but to me CanAm at its pinnacle was Chevrolet powered McLarens and Chaparrals, Bruce, Denny, Mark, and Jim. When those teams went away, a lot of bandaids were brought in to save CanAm. Including allowing the Porsches into the series.

 

No - I think Max & Bernie will be bananas of motorosport

 

Exactly and the fans will follow :THE BEST with the best drivers..

 

I am not at all yet convinced there will be any F1 series other than the one controlled by FOM/FIA. I don't see this rosy picture of 8 teams forming an unlimted series where they can spend all the money they want. At some point in any future season of this supposedly ultimate new series, seven of those teams will effectively be also rans, and probably four of them will always be at the very back of the pack. So how long it will it take before Renault, Red Bull, BMW, even Toyota to wonder why they are spending all of this money to finish second, or worse year after year? So when they drop out for that reason, or because of economic reasons, what is left, a Ferrari only series? Isn't that A1GP? So why bother, let's just increase the budgets of A1GP and skip the headache of a new series. And if Ferrari has seasons like this one, how long before they will want to change the rules to something that favors them? And a series with 8 teams all having veto power (cause you can bet in the new series Ferrari will not be the only team with veto power), that sounds effective! If a new rule is proposed by a team with money, and a team without so much money, like Brawn, does not like that rule, it gets vetoed. Hmmm....great progress.

What I described was the continuation of F1 inclusive of whatever FOTA teams don't drop out over the next few years due to economic reasons. So yes, for me the pinnacle is based on engineering, and the idea of budget restricitions forces that engineering to be even more proficient.

And F1 in that form will absolutetly continue to be the pinnacle of motor sports compared to whatever race series continue to survive economically.

 

They have never said that. The money was never an issue, it was about governance all along. They said they want a cost effective series that will allow new entry of teams and reasonable budgets

It's not about spending $$$ to get results. It's about having a level playing field, reasonable and mature rules, and appropriate governance.

That is not a concern because it's not about leaving F1 because they aren't winning. It's about governance.

You're just making stuff up that was never said, and using that as the basis for your argument. The new series never said anything about all teams having a veto. And again, it is completely not about wanting to leave F1 because they aren't winning. It's about governance. If the rules are in a perpetual state of flux, based on the whims of Max Mosley, it is absolutely not an environment that any company wants to be in. That is why, despite drastic cost cutting claims, no manufacturers signed up for the "new F1", and instead only podunk teams have joined anew. The teams want solid governance and appropriate legislative authority and recourse in the administration of Formula 1. That does not exist. Max has so far refused to let it exist. And as long as that continues, FOTA will not be in F1. If it is fixed, they will come back. Not before. Because it's all about governance. Not money, nor wins, not vetos, nor results. It's about governance.

Your position is irreconcilable. You say engineering makes a sport the pinnacle... so you are saying the new teams will out-engineer Ferrari and McLaren? Really? You think USF1 and Manor and iSport and Superfund will come up with better engineering than Ferrari and McLaren? With what money? They will be lucky to operate at a small loss.

It is clear that engineering is tied to money spent. That is indisputable, otherwise a Toyota Corolla would have better engineering than a Mercedes S600. That clearly isn't the case. Furthermore, if proficient engineering was going to happen with reduced budgets, then teams like Super Aguri, Minardi, Arrows, Spyker and others would have come up with brilliant innovations to help them succeed against better financed competitors.

That never happened. Ever.

Therefore, it is clearly not true that F1 will continue to be the pinnacle of engineering. The FOTA series will be the stage for the top cars, top lap times, top talent, top manufacturers, top sponsors and top performers. F1 will be a collection of constantly-broke teams trying desperately to get by while spending the least amount possible.

F1 will not be the pinnacle without manufacturer participation.

 

Exactly! Where did FOTA state that all they want is to be able to spend unlimited amounts of money and until that happens there's no deal???

 

In Max's press statement?

 

At one time, this FIA/FOTA issue was about money and governance. Not just governance as you say. Now its about neither, it is about power.

I agree with you that their needs to be a drastic change in the governance of the FIA. Mosley will be gone, there is no alternative for Ecclestone. There needs to be some form of committee review of proposed rules and regulations, and standards set as to implementation. However, the FIA must still be in control of F1, not the teams. FOTA did not become unified until all of this BS started. Previous meetings, attempts to negotiate with the teams was met with apathy. Teams managing a motorsports series has never worked, and with the egos involved in FOTA, I do not see it happening. I see the governance issue as the one that can be most easily fixed. Its the long term problem of participants in F1 that is the serious issue, and that involves money.

The only way that a "level playing field", to use your words can be achieved, is if there are reasonable budget restrictions that are the same for all of the teams. At one time it was said that FOTA actually came up with workable figures, but for some unknown reason, they never presented those figures. With the same restrictions for everyone, then there would be more proficient engineering on an increasing basis, possibly even by some of the newer teams. Why not? There is always another young Ross Brawn or Adrian Newey out there that wants to make their mark on the sport. Your example of Super Aguri, Minardi, etc, makes no sense, they would always be out spent as they did not have Ferrari McLaren like budgets. With the same budgets, you get that level playing field you mentioned.

And yes Michael, with the same $$ to spend, with time, even the new teams could out engineer Ferrari and McLaren. Brawn continues to improve and out engineer Ferrari and Mclaren on his now small team budget, and with a lower budget Red Bull to date has out engineered Ferrari and McLaren. So yes, it is very possible that some day USF1 could out engineer Ferrari and McLaren. You are not reading what I wrote, I said with the same budgets, that means USF1 or Superfund could spend the same as Ferrari and with better personnel, someday out engineer Ferrari.

Am I to interpret your comments that you agree there needs to be budget restrictions in F1? That's a yes or no question. Assume there is no governance issue. Mistakenly I may have previously interpreted your statements as implying that there should be no budget restrictions, and that F1 can only be F1 if the teams can spend whatever they can afford. Which is it?

Why do you keep making things up to make a point? It certainly is a concern that Toyota, Mercedes, Renault could drop out in the future for economic reasons. You are quite wrong to say its not an issue. That information has been public for months. So far the only solution offered outside of new teams, is adding a third car to exsiting teams. Gee, that goes a long way to control the budgets. Also, in one of the FIA/FOTA communications, it was stated that FOTA teams all wanted veto power, so I did not make anything up. It is apparent you have not been following this situation as closley as you pretend.

You made this comment in your post as response to mine: "Therefore, it is clearly not true that F1 will continue to be the pinnacle of engineering. The FOTA series will be the stage for the top cars, top lap times, top talent, top manufacturers, top sponsors and top performers. F1 will be a collection of constantly-broke teams trying desperately to get by while spending the least amount possible." You apparently once again did not read what I wrote. I stated in my post that I do not see a breakaway series happening. Read this last sentence again as you missed it the first time. With that in mind, I stated that an FIA series along with whatever FOTA teams do not leave because of economic reasons, like Toyota, Renault, F1 will continue to be the pinnacle of motorsports. One series Michael. That includes Ferrari, McLaren, et al.

No doubt, F1 will continue to be the pinnacle of motor sports.

 

I thought that Honda was paying all of Brawn's bills this year and they had a very large budget.

 

I did not say that Clint. I interpret the comments here on FCHAT of some that want an unlimited series.

There are at least two FOTA teams that want budget caps, but there are two than want no restrictions. Limiting the number of wings and body changes is not going to bring in new teams. I really don't know what FOTA is willing to do as they dropped the ball and instead of a counter offer to what was really a compromise from the FIA, they decide to take their ball home and not play.

I think one more public move by FOTA to compromise would have done the trick, but now we may never know. The only innocent party is the fan. The rest, FIA, FOTA, FOM are disgusting children.

 

Spot on, Mike!

Carol

 

You cannot be serious in stating any of the FI's counter offers have been anything close to a compromise. The cat's out of the bag now Ron. You've just been pretending to be blind to what Max and the FIA have clearly been doing. Very funny Ron...you actually had me going for a while.

Oh ya, you're right. FOTA has been consistantly stating the same thing over and over again to absolutely no avail.....however, if they just would have countered one last time, stating the exact same thing as before, Max and the FIA would have suddenly had a complete change of heart and F1 would be saved.

You are the king of "good cop bad cop" Ron. You seriously have had me going this whole time.

 

Exactly!!

Once again

 

One of the saddest aspects of this mess is that the FIA and FOTA have forced fans into this sort of partisan arguing.
BTW Mike is right

 

From what I can see there are 2 people here that think the FIA is in the right.

I think 99% of fans support the teams and there is no argument.

 

+ 1 ........100% correct

+1
Yet again agreed ..

Clint, bang on as well mate.

patricko also agreed.

 

I'm not sure about the split but I'd agree that most people tend to be fans of teams and drivers not of beurocracies. (sp)
It just a shame that we have to waste our time on what should be periferal to the sport. Then again if the administrators were doing their jobs none of this would be an issue would it?

 

F1 with only Williams and a grid of pissant scrubs will die a quick death. The FIA should deliver Max's head to the FOTA on a silver platter if they know what's good for them.