are they really designed to drive the hell out of it?

The car was marketed to be a source of income for the F1 race team BUT, the drive-line was designed by the people who make Ferraris. Ric Rainbolt owned my 308GTB (between episodes of my ownership) and he drove it as a daily driver AND to its limit on the track most weekends. It was made to be driven hard and it does that job as well today as it has ever done. Nothing is 'bad' or 'wrong' with driving these cars to their limit. That's why the put redlines on the tach. But to do so, they have to be maintained properly AND not taken beyond their limit. All that being said; I'm not sure the US Spec cars quite fit that description because they were encumbered with EPA and DOT crap AFTER the maker's designs were penned. Otherwise, why do you need "slow down" lights? And last of all, we must define 'driving hard' to not include 'abuse'.

Of course, its easier to exceed the driver's limit... -rick

 

No offense here, but Enzo would be rolling around in his grave if he saw this thread.

 

Of course, any engine will wear out faster if run at high RPM than it will if run at low RPM (assuming the engine can get to normal operating temperature). But these are (for the time) high performance engines and were therefore built with the design parameter that the engines would be run at higher than "normal" rpm/power levels. So basically it means that it WAS designed to hold together at 7500+ RPM; it DOESN"T mean it was designed to produce that power AND last a long time/high mileage.

If you run them mildly; they will last a long time, like any engine. If you run the heck out of them they will not last so long. But it seems to me that owning a Ferrari and NOT at least occasionally red-lining it in every gear possible makes the owning experience somewhat less than what the car is supposed to deliver. It really has no operational purpose other than fun driving. It is not comfortable in the general sense of the word; it can't hold much of anything so it doesn't do a very good job of being useful for daily tasks.

One could argue that in the limited sense that it is a car that can cover distances rapidly on winding roads and therefore, it is useful in that aspect. But that's not a useful parameter nowadays with Interstates (full of trucks) and cheap airfares. So I guess my opinion is that if I don't drive the heck out of it sometimes, what other reason is there (for ME, I am not trying to speak for others) to bother owning one. I have no interest at all in a garage queen/concours car so I just drive it around for fun which also includes the hardware store, grocery store, restaurants, etc. Today we're driving into Annapolis to visit a couple of malls...

 

LOL! As he would over most of our conversations. I guess my opinion is that just because the car is beautiful, it does not follow that it has to be a 'poser'.

 

Enzo didn't care anything at all about the road cars. If he read this thread he more likely say, "Who the H3ll cares, why is my F1 team only in 4th place?"

 

He lived to race. He marketed street cars to fund the F1 team. As such, the model is pretty simple. And that's probably why it worked! ...and without even one 'focus group'.

 

Reduced to its primal core, this thread really asks: Was the 308 line designed for high performance?
My answer is just an opinion but it is: Yes. It was designed for high performance. It was designed to operate for a long time, if maintained properly, if driven within the guidelines of the makers. Will it wear faster at 7800rpm than at 3000rpm? Probably. However, bogging a car down at low revs is often harder on the engine than shifting smoothly at higher engine speeds. That's what the grearbox is for. So again, I state; The redline is on the tach for a reason and any engine that is used under any conditions, will need maintenance, wear-related replacement parts and sometimes, repairs. All of that is expected AND outlined in the maintenance manuals. -rick

 

These days, I think he might actually say "F^CK Bernie and the FIA. They can suck my muffler all the way to a new Championship series...."

 

Its not a wive's tale. Anyone who has driven an older Ferrari around town vs. taking a spirited drive down a mountain road, can tell you what is was designed for. I have never driven any other car that comes alive when driven spiritedly like a Ferrari. The engine just sings above 3K rpm and swings effortlessly to redline all day long. The steering lightens and gives exceptional feedback at speed and turn in is just incredible for an old car. Everything in a ferrari from the flat crank engine to the suspension was designed for spirited driving. Ferrari never made poseur cars...it just wasn't in their DNA.


As for the long term reliability of the cars. I asked an extremely well respected Ferrari master tech the same question. Provided the cars are well maintained, he told me the cars were designed to be driven aggressively, and he sees all kinds of problems with older Ferraris that people just loaf around in. As someone said, high rpm puts more "mileage" on the engine than low rpm, because there is more piston movement per mile. HOWEVER, apparently there are other problems that can be more serious in Ferraris that are just driven down the boulevard. That being said, abuse is abuse...powershifting, redlining in first gear, redlining every shift, and making every turn a 1G affair is going to cause excess wear.

 

If you read the contemporary road tests and interviews with Niki Lauda (who helped develop the 308) you will read that Ferrari saw the 308 as the first performance car that could also be used almost every day with lighter steering and a softer ride. But still a performance car. Best of both worlds to me.

 

After reading all these replies I think it's safe to say, all machines wear out, all machines, get old and all machines need to be taken care of. The more complicated the machine, the more it will need repair/maintenance and the harder you work the machine the more repair/maintenance it will need.

But you have to admit, Ferrari did a better job them most in the 1970/80’s when it comes to performance cars. Chevy tried to do a good job with the Corvettes of the day, but every time Chevy came out with some new “Tech” they put it on the Vette first before it had been tested. Usually it was some analog over complicated under tested technology that ended up creating a nightmare for the owner.

I don’t think the 308 has any of that. It seems a bit complicated at times because of the lay out and how these are put together, but it’s all the same parts, just in a sexier layout.

Fast, yeah. Fun, yeah. Flog-able, yeah. Track-able, yeah. Breakable! YEAH!

With anything, commons sense rules supreme.

I say, stretch its legs, change it’s oil!
Beat its ass, break a part, replace the part, beat it slightly less!

It’s just a machine!

Other complicated machines that will break if you are hard on them:
Xerox Copy Machines
The Space Shuttle
Women

 

too true!..all about F1 for Mr. Ferrari...his road cars were merely to finance his racing addiction

 

Just thought you should notice - you just hit post 308.... in THIS thread

Jedi

 

I know of several projects going-on here in New England and in other threads which are currently capitalizing on the over-engineering of the 308 drivetrain in its stock condition - you have a clutch that can handle 300+ HP for an engine that only produces 230-250. You have Head Gaskets that could handle 10.5 compression in a stock motor providing 8.8. Your stock transmission can handle 400 RWHP, while the motor is only putting-out half that. There are other areas where the car is over-engineered for the stock configuration. There are a few areas that are alittle 'weak', but you're dealing with a limited-production effort, so not everything is going to be absolutely perfect. I have not heard or seen pre-mature wear on a 308 or 328 unless Turbos or Supercharging was involved, and even then a straightforward rebuild with better gaskets/seals can remedy the situation and get the car back on the road again.

 

Do you have any idea what the slow down lights are for, or what they indicate? What does that have to do with they way the car is driven?

 

As long as the engine oil is warmed properly I do not see how running the engine at 7k compared to 3k is going to make too much of a difference. Most wear occurs right at start-up and once the engine reaches optimal oil operating temps there is almost no wear. The previous owner of my 308 drove the car *hard* on a regular basis, and he was one of the most anal retentive engine oil warm-up freaks to walk the planet. That being said, my engine still has yet to be taken apart at 82k miles and still runs very well AND passes emissions easily. I am sure there are several out there like this.

I think it is important to look at the oil flow characteristics on these engines which helps in keeping them together after being beaten so much. I have never taken the time to measure the main oil galleys nor have I had the opportunity, but I have been told that the oil galleys in general are huge compared to say a Chevy or Ford V8. Large galleys coupled with a over efficient oil pump I am sure helps keep these things from flying to pieces. I have yet to find a mechanic who has had one of these apart say the bottom ends are not overbuilt.

So yes, I say go ahead and beat on it, but please do not do so until warmed properly so the oil system and oil can do their jobs.

 

Yes. Cat heat. Ideally they should just indicate problems, that a cylinder is misfireing and raw fuel is buring in the cat, thus overheating. However, they may also indicate that the cats are not up to handling even healthy exhaust from a 3x8 engine at extended full song. This is exactly why I made the comments earlier that this car, with cats, was NOT the original intent of the 308 designers, and that EPA and DOT regulations may have reduced the subsequent cars from what the designers originally intended. The original question was (paraphrasing); Were these cars meant to be driven like Ferraris or were they just pretty marketing objects. The original design, I believe, was that they were to be driven at their limits. The US regs may have castrated some of that original robustness. Opinions. That's all we're sharing. -rick

 

There have been many objective tests (by people NOT trying to sell you something) showing that cats in good ceondition - at least any cat since the mid 80's - do not reduce power. Some fairly recent tests showed that on a 700 HP engine the most HP loss the cats caused was 7HP which, as the dyno folks noted, is within the variation range of the motor and dyno at that HP level. So unless the cats are clogged - which indicates a different problem - it/they are not going to reduce your car's HP.

 

Then you would wonder why all the removal of cats that abound here: guessing sound

I agree it doesn't help much while providing more environmental exhaust.

 

Guessing: I'm guessing that the original cats were NOT of the quality of units today and that they were restrictive - or perhaps they were after they aged a bit. Perhaps they were failing as leaded gas and damaging gas additives were still available in the early '80s. Then again, both of my cars are Euros so I have no cats to consider.

As for the environment, let 10 million Honda owners park their daily drivers first and then I'll consider not driving my 308 or Mondial a few miles every weekend or so. Just a question of scale.

 

In the 80's, I BELIEVE the smog equipment in US cars hampered HP. How else can you explain the 10HP difference between a Euro and American 3.2 engine?

 

Wives tales are very hard to kill.

I remember the early days of emission control. It was all bad and people did everthing possible to get rid of it. They would remove the PCV system and plug it all up depriving the motor of needed crankcase ventillation. Cars would blow the rear main seal right out of the motor.

Fast forward to the 21st century. Most now understand the need for crankcase ventillation but have an equally simplistic view of more modern equipment.

 

It wasn't the equipment. It was the reduced compression and retarded cams. At the time there wasnt the technology available to clean the exhaust any other way.

Not true now.

No one believes this but it is never the less true. A US spec F40 makes more HP than the base model sold in Italy.