Curb Weight: US Super Ferraris, CS and Scuderia | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Curb Weight: US Super Ferraris, CS and Scuderia

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Bill S, Jun 12, 2009.

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  1. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    IMHO, I think it's pretty impressive that a 12-cylinder Enzo with 650 HP, all 2003 US safety equipment, and a full carbon fiber tub to protect the occupants weighs the same as your Euro 512BB. And I think the Enzo's dimensions are noticeably larger all around.
     
  2. littlebastard

    littlebastard Rookie
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    Jun 19, 2009
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    #102 littlebastard, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    Yes and No IMO, 30 years later technology should give huge improvements but the carbon fibre tub claim on an Enzo is a bit exaggerated most I have seen in accidents have disintegrated or burned upon impact. The BB has a built in roll bar and tube frame crumple zones and I haven't seen BBs in multiple pieces in accidents and before someone makes the comment newer Fs are designed to break up such as 360s and Enzos to absorb the impact makes as much sense as a plane is designed to break up on impact with the ground to protect passengers in a crash landing.


    But ill agree id much rather be in a Enzo in a accident than a BB.
     
  3. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2005
    7,467
    South East MI
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    Isaac not Issac
    Whoa, slow down here.
    The rear end, containing a majority of the mass of the Enzo is designed to split apart from the passenger compartment. When that happens, then the passenger compartment looses mass, and inertia protecting it's occupants. While in the older car, they may crumple; but maintain the same inertia inducing a higher likelihood of death.

    Two of the three big Enzo crashes have resulted in living occupants (we are talking about crashing 150-190 mph (155 estimated speed in Italy (split in two just north of the back end hitting a telephone pole; 168+ on PCH splitting in two behind the passenger compartment [lucky], and Loose's car at the Utah Fast Pass which rolled, and "disintigrated" but maintained form around the passenger compartment)

    Let me know the next time you survive a crash of that magnitude in your 512 BB...
     
  4. littlebastard

    littlebastard Rookie
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    Jun 19, 2009
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    #104 littlebastard, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    I said the Enzo would be the preferred car in a accident over my BB however in 20 years the cf chassis of the Enzo is an unknown concerning deterioration of resins over time and the long term effects of cf itself which splinters on impact vs steel. Let's try those accidents in a CS, 360 or 430 those cars would be in a 1000 pieces or more likely a ripped open beer can.
     
  5. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    #105 Bill S, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    Luckily the F40 hasn't turned to dust yet. Maybe in a few years.
     
  6. littlebastard

    littlebastard Rookie
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    Jun 19, 2009
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    Who said anything about dust? Crash one hard see what happens, the f40 is tube frame not a cf structural tub as the Enzo I am sure it would still hold up well.
     
  7. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
    1,441
    UK
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    Will Tomkins
    Could you share what you have on Jim's car, until you get the full figures? Also I assume he used calibrated scales which should give the same result as yours whatever the 'system'.

    And will you add the Euro F40 to your table?
     
  8. gbrown37

    gbrown37 Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2005
    2,310
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    Garrett
    I think the Enzo crashes speak for themselves. That Losee's Enzo rolled and flipped multiple times at 190 mph and let him essentially walk away is a testament to the structure and rigidity and thus safety of the tub. Nuff said.

    And going off of what Bill said, we have yet to see a "deterioration of resin" or a splintering of the carbon fiber in a high-speed F40 crash. Those 20 years also speak for themselves.

    But let's not deviate too much from the curb weight discussions, because that's awesome.
     
  9. littlebastard

    littlebastard Rookie
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    Jun 19, 2009
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    Ill agree on the Losee Enzo crash and the last point concerning cf as I looked into manufacturing cf products there is nothing magical about cf other than the carbon fibre cloth you use the same resins as making fibreglass products when laying up cf in various molds. The resins are what holds it together and as anyone knows with old fibreglass items such as boats whatever delaminating and many other issues happen over time.

    Now back on track to the weights
     
  10. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    #110 Bill S, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    Yes, Jim posted this earlier in the thread. The car had some fuel in it...

    I'll happily weigh a Euro F40 if someone has one in Southern California.
     
  11. Speedracer38

    Speedracer38 F1 Veteran

    Oct 11, 2004
    5,187
    Connecticut
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    Jason Thorgalsen
    Bill will you be weighing a Superleggera? It would be cool to see how it stacks up against the GT3RS and CS.
     
  12. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    #112 Bill S, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    If you have one in Southern Cal, I'll weigh it. I raced one in the Enzo at the Mojave airport a few weeks ago. I'll see if the owner is around here. Generally, the lambos are heavier than the Ferraris. Car & Driver weighed it at 3,434 lbs, but I don't know how much gas was in it...
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  13. ELIM

    ELIM Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2005
    2,055
    OC, CA
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    Elliot
    There is another SL owner not too far from you.
     
  14. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    Thanks. See if they'd like their car weighed. If so, email me. I didn't intend to weigh the lambos on this project, but if the owner can come by I don't mind adding it as a reference point.
     
  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,288
    Southern California
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    Joe Sackey
    Just a note, the 288 GTO is tube frame, composite body.

    Also a number of specialist magazines have issued weights on the GTO when the car was relatively new, and Ive copied them here, just for fun. The variances notable:

    2557 lbs (dry weight) - Cavallino 21/1984
    2550 lbs (dry weight) - Car & Driver September 1984
    2880 lbs (full tank, Jere Clarke's car in the USA) - Car & Driver September 1985
    2557 lbs (dry weight) - Superauto Illustrated January 1986
    2720 lbs ("test weight" with curb weight stated as 2555 lbs, Armin Johl's car in Germany) - Road & Track August 1986
     
  16. ELIM

    ELIM Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2005
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    OC, CA
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    Elliot
    Sure.

    btw, what is the max load rating of these scales? Just asking. ;)
     
  17. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    Ha! 1500 lbs/wheel. I think we're OK.
     
  18. gbrown37

    gbrown37 Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2005
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    #118 gbrown37, Jun 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
    Perfect, I'll have to weigh my black box next time I'm over. Kidding, of course.
     
  19. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    Thanks Joe! Do you have a car I can weigh? I'll come to you and pay to fill it up!

    BTW, if 2880 lbs is correct with a full tank, the empty tank weight would be 2693. It's hard to say unless we weigh one ourselves with a known full tank.
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    May 23, 2006
    57,288
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    You can certainly weigh my GTO if you don't mind waiting till the week after July 4th - I have a few commitments keeping me busy till then. Don't worry about gas! Ive contacted a local gentleman and if he is available, you might get an F40 & F50 as well all on the same day in one single Orange County swoop. I know you have another option in San Diego, so one way or another we will get them all weighed.

    I think the GTO is the lightest of the Ferrari Supercars by a considerable margin, and compared to the F40s Ive owned (USA cars) the feeling is noticeable as you drive the car in the way it skips over the road at speed, and jiggles along at slow speed. Although a GTO rates less horsepower, if it is operating correctly, on the boost it feels as quick as an F40, if not quicker. It is true that our very own Shill288 routinely passes open-throttled F40s at Ferrari Club track days. The brakes on the GTO dont look very big, but man do they haul the car down from speed! I guess the point I am making is low weight is a good thing, and the 288 GTO happened in a special and unrepeatable era. Such a seminal car whose simplicity hides its awesome potential (I kind of appreciate that). Because they are rare, not many have experienced them so they are sometimes overlooked or dismissed in that way.

    Look forward to having it weighed. Remind me to remove the gold bars from the trunk beforehand :)
     
  21. gbrown37

    gbrown37 Formula 3

    Feb 15, 2005
    2,310
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    Garrett
  22. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
    Joe, this is very much appreciated! Please feel free to contact me when you're ready – and having the F40 and F50 there would be major icing on the cake!

    I've wanted to do this project for many years. One of the #1 items I consider before I purchase a car is weight. As you mention with the 288 GTO, it's just a different experience when a car is light. IMHO, weight is a major performance parameter of any super car. Not only does it translate into optimal acceleration for a given HP, but the response of the car to any driver input is greatly magnified. Imagine what it would be like if your car weighed 500 lbs with the aero to keep it on the ground and the stiffness you would expect in a much heavier car. It would be like flying through the air with no car at all – instant and incredible G-forces for you and your passenger in response to your mental and/or physical commands!

    Well, maybe not mental in our lifetime.
     
  23. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995
  24. shawsan

    shawsan Formula 3

    Jul 2, 2004
    1,090
    Vancouver, Canada
    Bill,

    The time and effort you are putting into preparing and presenting summary data in your Table merits a 10 out of 10. We should promote you to 'mayor of US Ferrari Supercars'! though I suspect you'd decline such an honor!

    Your addition of the 60-130 mph times provides stunning revelations. As an owner of a CS and a modified 993TT to Turbo R specs (490 conversion), as well as a 996 R turbo (550 conversion), I'm startled by the differences in 60-130 times between the CS and your Ruf turbo R. Acknowledging your solid reservations about the singular importance of 0-60 times, or weight/HP, I do however think that adding columns for each of less telling indicators would be useful because it puts the 60-130 times in even more 'stark relief' thus providing an education to readers that the famed 0-60 and hp/weight measures tell only part of the story and a distorted one at that.

    Btw, while readership on this forum is pretty good, I'd encourage you to push ahead with a full blown article on your project, for FORZA, for example. Aside from the interest generated by the information you're assembling, it should also pressure Ferrari into doing better in its own marketing of weights etc. in the future.

    Cheers, shawsan
     
  25. Bill S

    Bill S Formula 3

    Oct 2, 2004
    1,995

    Thanks so much for the kind words. Franky, I'm amazed at how many people are enjoying this project as much as I am. I think some people didn't really equate a cars "feel" to its weight, and this thread may help clarify that. I think we'll find that the intensity of this special feeling will correlate with the weight-order of the cars in the table, as well as the structural rigidity of the car. Stiff light cars just feel good!

    As an aside, 60-130 is a great measurement if you want really strong straight-line performance. Here in CA, it's often more desirable to have a light and good-handling car for the curvy roads we have, and I find myself driving the CS more than the Ruf on the street. In AZ or FL, I enjoy the Ruf more. But when invited to a runway event, I'll always take the Enzo. Then it's fun to see the dramatic difference between fast cars and very fast cars, especially at higher speeds.
     

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