Going over 10/10s

we nearly always turned up with the 'factory' set up for Indy. A car proven capable of say 220mph. some drivers got that speed quickly, some couldn't get close. We changed the car for the fast driver to explore an even higher limit, and changed the driver in the other circumstance! unsuccessful teams changed their cars to match their driver's 10/10ths, ie 200mph!

 

Chuck,

In post #20 I basically said what you said but poorly. I illude to "preservation of equipment and strategy." Can we have a little detour on your ideas about this? It is the strategy of racecraft that really makes it fun in my opinion. If I just wanted to go fast I would do "time trialing."

 

In a thread like this it is hard to differentiate the difference of 10/10s vs 11/10s driving. Here are a couple of videos I think show it off pretty well from my in-car camera.

The first is from the Sebring World Challenge Touring Car race in 2008. I qualified on the pole but was moved to the back because of a broken exhaust hanger hanging too low. So I had a challenge on hand as I knew I had a fast car but I needed to get to the front. I ended up finishing 5th but I had to drive the car 11/10ths to get there.


11/10ths driving at Sebring


This video from Mid Ohio is qualifying for the Speed World Challenge Touring car race in 2007. I qualified 3rd and had pole until the very last minute of qualifying. Joey Hand qualified right behind me in the same car. This video is a great example of getting everything out of the car in fast but controlled manner. The tires were at all times right on the verge of the slip angle but never really exceeded it except in one small spot.


10/10ths driving at Mid Ohio


Seth Thomas
BimmerWorld Racing
Driver and Driver Coach

 

Nice drive Seth!!! I can appreciate Sebring!!!

 

Seth when I "try" to drive my 11/10th's my tires go away and I get slower as I try harder. Then everything goes to hell. If I drove like you in Sebring I do not think my tires would have made it for a 30 minute sprint race. Obviously as a pro you can do it. Can you tell us about how you "mange" the car so you can finish strong?

 

Well, in racing strategy is everything. And strategy is a big part of racecraft; and equipment preservation is a big part of strategy. In the words of The King (Richard Petty): "In order to finish first, you must first finish."
To expand on preservation, one must preserve the tools in which they use to compete until such time that they can afford to flog them without risk of failure before the end of the race. This is hopefully a calculated risk and done so with a somewhat predictable formula but there's always an amount of gut check, prayer/luck, and hedging the odds involved - which is what makes it fun and entertaining - right?! So tires, brakes, engine/drivetrain, suspension and chassis must be in working order (and ideally optimally so) in order to be competitive and therefor must be preserved until such time that their useful life is over or can be spent for an ultimate gain that is affordable such that it offsets their expenditure. (Wow, I just realized how nerdy that sounds!) In other words, you wait to toast your equipment until it's deemed worth it...

I like your reference to Time Trials and just wanting to go fast. Even in TTs though, you have to "save up" until you are on your 'go lap' and that assumes you can afford to go all out and pay for and/or repair any needed consequences should they arise afterward.

Racecraft these days goes way beyond equipment preservation though. Depending on series and profile level (say SCCA Amateur sprint races vs. big budget F1, NASCAR, etc.), strategy also entails things like pit stops, driver changes, tire and fuel replenishment types and levels, aero changes, radio traffic, and picking a pace and holding it until it makes strategic sense to alter it (say run mid pack to save fuel and sandbag a bit until the 'moments of truth' arrive and then break out as a surprise.

And you're right - this can be what really makes it fun. So many forget that this truly is a team sport. Just because seemingly the majority of the time there is one primary person in front of the camera and taking point responsibility for the device itself does not lessen the impact of any other individual or process during the event. Indeed, their importance spikes exponentially when in use, and full preparation is key to proper execution by everyone and everything on the team.

And of course, all of this relates back to the 10/10s conversation in that strategy often dictates that the driver stays at 9/10s for a given amount of time to preserve equipment, stay rested, and mitigate risk only to turn it up to 10/10s (and sometimes debated even more - so called 11/10s, which in my definition means we are now losing time, not gaining, so performing unwisely and beyond the boundaries of control/predictable outcomes...) when necessary to gain position, take advantage of a situation, make up for lost ground, or compete for the podium at/towards race end.

Where one is located in the field can also dictate this. Let's say you're leading the race (P1) but you've only got a .2 and .5 sec lead on 2nd and 3rd places respectively. It's just past the halfway point in the race and everyone in the front of the field have just made any needed pit stops and traffic is minimal in front of you. Chances are, the radio chatter on the P2 and P3 teams' frequencies is going to be around pressuring P1 - thereby making you run harder... closer to, if not at or over 10/10s. Incidentally, they WANT you to feel pressured to run 11/10s because that means you are more likely to make mistakes and overall loose ground due to pushing too hard. This of course means P2 & 3 are pushing it too but they have the psychological advantage of being on the offensive. They can more easily choose to back off and relax to say 9.5 or 9/10s without P1 knowing it immediately and can form a re-attack as soon as you relax or drop off your pace at all.

P1's job is to maintain position and presumably 'clean air' (arguably counter to the benefit of a draft that P2 & P3 may have...), which means while you are positionally at an advantage, you are logistically and psychologically at a disadvantage - placing more stress on the team and the equipment. This is strategy 101. Of course, strategy 201 gets into 'who are my friends/allies?' and who can I play with to gain an advantage only to screw them over for an 'every team for themselves' lead over them when the time gets short... as long as it's not teammates and likely F1... which adds a whole new dynamic to strategy - especially long term. Which I won't even go into the implications of macro (season, mfg., sponsor, political, etc.) strategy over micro (race, during race, qualifying, political, etc.) strategy.

Racing has changed a LOT since the days of Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob running around in circles on dirt, having a big time in a self supported car for the sake of laughs and the thrill of surviving an acute level of risk-taking. Now it's big business, big money, and big strategy. Everything matters and everything matters differently at each higher rung on the ladder of the operation of the sport itself. This is one of the things that I love about club racing: it's closer to the root/origins of the sport from a political and strategic standpoint.

Hopefully this hasn't been too much of a divergence from the thread's subject and makes some relative sense.


Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Not to put words in Seth's mouth (he's the pro! ), but I may be able to shed light here. Took me awhile to understand why some could and some couldn't go "over the edge" without trashing the car until I started studying video, data and combined that with the ability to identify performance trends among hundreds of drivers. Then, it was perfectly clear.

First, most folks when they overdrive (try for 11/10's) are doing so after the car has already slowed going into the corner and are usually past the end of the braking zone. They make BIG changes on the wheel and pedals and the car reacts to those changes, most of the time by getting MORE out of shape! If you're trying to manage the only connection you have to this earth, the four tire contact patches, then you are going to trash those in a hurry. Usually this happens at one end or the other because the amplitude and frequency of these BIG inputs will push the tires past the optimal temp range so that the cF of the tire falls off a cliff. Usually, when folks can't manage the car past the maximum efficiency and performance envelope, then ONE end of the car gives up first. The front if they're wailing into the corner without managing it on the brakes or by whipping the wheel around and frying the back tires if they equate an "assy" car balance with "fast" (can be showboating, too Seth would never do that ) or have too happy a right foot anywhere in the corner but mostly at the exit.

Second, the key word is "balance." Seth is one of the smoothest drivers I know and I routinely use his videos (his tidy, 10/10ths videos) as reference standards for getting ALL out of the car. What he is clearly doing in the 11/10ths mode is unsticking the car more violently and less progressively equally, mostly at corner entry and by using more than the max efficiency (hence more than the perceived performance envelope of the given cF) to CARRY GREATER SPEED from turn-in through the apex and onto exit. He IS using up the equipment, but he's doing it in such a way that BOTH ends go away equally and he never runs into that wall where the car no longer turns or no longer launches out of the corner. He does this by managing more violently (albeit with a soft and still-smooth touch) the transition of braking and turning, then when the car develops big yaw (which slows it down the rest of the way he needs to stay on track), he "balances" the car on the throttle coming through and out. Wouldn't you say that's accurate, Seth? Chuck?

The reason why the pros can do it without trashing the car is because they do it ALL THE TIME and the layman's idea of 11/10ths is the prelude to a smoking heap of rubble. The pros idea of 11/10's is another tool in the toolbox to pull out and use when required.

It's awesome when it works...

 

I have to admit that I have not yet been able to watch the video. I've been busy away from the forum for over a week and once back been at very limited bandwidth connectivity that has kept me from watching them. I can't wait to see them but alas... can't right now.

Besides, Seth is the one driving in the video; he'd be the best assessor of analysis accuracy.
Seth?

Oh, and it IS awesome when it works! And, it's awesome when it doesn't... just not in a very good way.

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

Congrat's to Team Peugeot who clearly put in an 11/10s effort to win the 24 Heurs Du Mans overall and in class!!
And certainly to Team Rissi for taking their class on such as special occasion made even more special by the 60th anniversary!!
And I would be remiss if I left out Team Corvette for their valiant GT1 victory effort fully realized - such an emotional experience for my buddy Dan Binks!

A race that takes 10/10s to finish and 11/10s to podium

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

thanks for the spoiler

 

Oh! I didn't even think about that in my excitement...

I am SOOOO Sorry.


I should have at least put a warning in the title.
That was just boneheaded of me. I feel really bad. Again, I apologize.

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

no worries, you just owe us more free driving tips.

 

Just goes to show you... no matter who we think we are, there is always something more to learn, a way to do even better, and most likely someone who's already ahead of us in proving such.

That's the benefits of true coaching: establishing clearly where your perception of 10/10s is, and then through the coaching process constantly elevating the bar to gain skills and experience that push that back to 8/10s and/or lower, creating a new 10 & 11/10s to be explored. It is only through the exploration of what seems like 11/10s that we can truly discover the meaning of 10/10s and how to skillfully turn it into something less.



And congrat's Rob on a fantastic performance and the attainment of new records and new learning!! Great job & very fast!

Cheers & C U @ d'Track!!
C

Chuck Hawks,
Pro-Driver, Coach, Instructor & Facilitator
DreamsFulfilled, LLC & rEvolution Performance Driving System ©

 

10/10ths is an interesting term.

I look at it this way. If you are not comfortable with the car moving around underneath you, you will never be fast, especially in the wet. You have to learn to feel the limit pushing, oversteering, and everything in between. Plus the limit changes day to day, lap to lap, and for myriad other variables. I guess driving this way is 10/10ths?

This comfort does not mean that you are very fast, though, because if you throw the car around too much you are slow and, even worse, overheat the tires (which may never recover full grip). Maybe this is 11/10ths; making big corrections and going slower as a result. Or maybe being genuinely out of control is 11/10ths.

The real art and constant learning experience is knowing just the right speed and car control to have optimum slip angle all the time. Maybe that is 10 +/- .0001/10ths

To me, the greatest challenge is knowing and feeling the most possible entry speed into a turn. I don't want the car to slide so much that I cook the tires or have to make a big, sloppy correction. But if the car does not slip just so to track out (or perhaps even drop 2 wheels on certain turns), then I wimped out and went in too slow.

As a result, I tend to go off on qualifying and then dial it back just enough to race.

Not that I do it right, but the challenge and learning expereince is different every day, every lap, and every turn, which keeps me coming back.

 

^ very well said.

 

+1,000,000

 

+ my kudos, as well. Great post, Keith.

 

That is a great post by Keith. Very similar to what I do in the racecar during my sessions on track. Make a mistake, carry too much speed, and learn from it. The hardest thing most people have when trying to drive at 10/10ths is they over drive the car. Their perception of how far over to drive the car is not fully developed yet so they go 5MPH too fast into the turn instead of 1 or 2 MPH. With a little bit of coaching and some practice anybody can drive fast. All it takes is track time, the right coach, and a willing attitude to keep learning no matter which track record you just set.

 

Hey...really interesting comment. Some of my recent comments on this and similar issues in this forum have been about equipment preservation while trying to drive all out. You may have really nailed it for me with the 5mph vs 1-2mph comment. "Perception of how far over to drive the car is not fully developed" and going in +5mph is probably why I have questions on equipment preservation. Geeze! One more time Its "not" the equipment its the driver! This is really a tough sport.