Is a 328 with over 50,000 miles sale proof?

Like Tillman I bought mine for "life" who cares? It had 50k when I bought it, over 80 now, fun every single mile...

 

I think there're at least 3 camps here: One is to drive their cars and get the best of them and another camp is more into preserving their cars, and then there's another camp in between driving but yet also preserving their Ferrari. The "driving" camp is more vocal on the forum, you just don't hear from the "preserving" camp but they are there. To me, it's your car do whatever you want.

When you drive your Ferrari to 100,000 miles and got the best out of it, you can't just expect to sell it for the same price as another Ferrari which has only 14,000 miles and concorso ready, it's not even a Ferrari thing: My well-loved 160000,-mile Toyota Land Cruiser worths less than another Land Cruiser which has only 60,000 miles on the clock.

 

The value of the car lies purely in how it is maintained. Low miles is a good thing on a car that is maximum 20 years old after that its no longer really a matter of low miles but a matter of how well restored/ maintained is the car.
The mileage frenzy is an expression of fear that people have when they enter the potential financial black hole of ferrari ownership. For some reason they feel that they are way ahead of the game because the car has low miles. They forget that if a 308 sits for a long time the gears in the transmission or parts of the gears that are not sitting in oil will in fact rust for example, the wires will be eaten up by mice or whatever else time brings along. All rubber parts leather etc. will dry out. The seals in the engine get hard etc etc. Which means any car that is 25 plus years old needs to be restored sooner or later. Its the same with Real estate, if you buy a house it will only look pretty for so long, if you would charge for every hour that a homeowner puts into keeping his house in good condition then real estate would probably be a pretty bad investment as well.
If you expect to buy a 30 year old car and just drive it then you are delusional no matter how many miles it has on it.

Helmut

 

I always wondered about the cars listed far sale in Cali, in the 1990s, that were 10-15 years old and had advertised 3K or 7K miles on them....

I say drive it enough to turn over the odometer once or twice and make it a 15K mile car again.....Thats why I like my Euro speedo/odo, the car became new again at ~66K miles and will be new again at about 130K miles. I only have 45K more miles to go.

But I am not selling my car, so any profit motive is nonexistent.


Doug

 

Gronk? Last time I looked, La Jolla CA was the west coast.


But for those planning to actually drive the car, I'd say first find a mechanic, then budget for service,
then go buy a high mileage car that already has lost the low miles premium.
There's no point paying a premium price for a "pristine" car, if you're going to rack up miles, park it where the paint will get dings, etc.

And budget about 10-15K for a "make it right" service. There will be things, even in a pristine low miles car, that the previous owner stopped noticing, that you'll want to fix. And a freshly (and thoroughly) serviced 328 is daily driver reliable.

I bought a "beater" with 40K on the clock, put about a quarter of the purchase price into an engine-out fix up, and then drove the wheels off it. (Did the 60K service three years later.) And I drove it to work every day last week.

What's mine worth on resale? In this economy, probably just about what I paid for it during the dot-com collapse. But do I care? I still drive it all the time. I've had it for 10 years, and will likely keep it until I'm too decrepit to drive.
By comparison, I don't expect to get 10 years out of the EVO. Japanese cars tend to be designed to be disposable. Italian cars tend to be designed to be serviced and kept going (until they rust). A properly maintained Ferrari (in aluminum or galvanized steel) will potentially last longer than you will.
(Too bad people can't be restored the way Italian cars can. )


For those buying a 328 who plan to keep it low mileage --- I hope you know what you'll be missing.

 

The two ferraris I have ('88 Mondial cab and '82 308) are the only two ferraris I really want to ever own. New ferraris like 360s/430s dont do anything for me and older vintage V12s (330s, etc.) don't have much appeal either. I'll probably own both my ferraris until I'm dead. Consequently, it doesn't really matter to me how many miles I put on them....in fact, more is better....more equals more smiles driving and more fun wrenching on it..... If my inheritors wish to curse me because they inherited some very high mileage ferraris then fine, their complaints will fall on deaf ears.

 

MJ tried. Didn't work too well.

 

And I am here telling everyone that the "low" milage cars have stories too. You just don't get to hear those.

I am to the point that I don't believe anyone anymore since I have seen too much funny business with the odometers over the past 25 years. Back in the 80's there were 308's in ads with 30,000 miles. Look in the back of an old R&T. A quarter century later 308's are for sale again with 30,000 miles still...

My favorite are the ones advertised with 30,000 miles and a "total engine rebuild" (and NOT just the 2V inj cars). Seriously, how well were THOSE cars cared for if they needed a complete motor tear down??? The obvious answer is they were NOT cared for.

 

+1. BTW I am squarely in the driver camp.

 

IMO
Higher prices for a low mileage car is a self fulfilling prophecy.

All that matters is the state of the car.

Car A: 10000 miles in 20 years.
It's very probably that during this time it has been standing still for some years. Not good.
Taken for very short drives without heating up the engine properly: Not good.
Not serviced regularly, why pay for a service if you don't drive it. Not good.

Car B: 50000 miles in 20 years.
Driven regularly, taken on some longer trips. Good.
All issues fixed since the aim was to drive it. Good.

If you want a showcar to put in your living room, buy an ultra low mileage one and pay the relatively crazy price.
If you want to drive it, buy one that's been driven (until very recently). and save money on the purchase.

 

the only real debate here is buying a car with high vs low miles. If you buy one that already has high miles, then you might as well drive it. Your purchase price already factors in more depreciation. If you buy a low mile car then you will take a bigger hit when you put mile on it. As others have already said, miles on any car decrease the value it is not just a ferrari thing. Personally i would rather have a mid-high mileage car that has been well taken care of and documented. If you buy a 328 at 50k and drive it to 100k then at least you have enjoyed it. In the x years that it takes to rack up all of those miles the car may actually appreciate in value. If so, spend the money on an engine rebuild and resto. If not at least you enjoyed buying a car at a lower price and driving it. True low mile cars would only have "delivery miles" (from a collector perspective.) If everyone else is "saving" their cars, there will always be someone that has a car more pristine than you.

Many years ago I worked with a guy that was a classic car broker. When asked by people what car to buy as investment he would always say " buy what you love and enjoy it. If you make money in the end, great. If not at least you enjoyed the car." he drove a 58 vette as a daily driver.

 

When I was looking for my 328, my only stipulation was that it was a GTB. My budget dictated that it would most likely be an '86 or '87 year model. What I REALLY wanted was an '89, but most of those cars had been speculation cars and had (supposedly) low miles and thus higher prices. However, I was able to find an '89 GTB with 57,000 miles. 1 owner, all original, records, books, etc. Due to the miles the price was much lower than any '89 I'd seen. I jumped on it like a fat kid on a cupcake. 2 years later I've got 67,000 miles. I know that if I wanted to sell it, I could because it's in such good condition, and it's an '89 with those dead sexy convex wheels. Concave wheels are hideous...especially Bullfighter's . However, I also know that I'd take a big hit in the selling price (especially in this market). You gotta pay to play.

 

Here is another example of more milage funny business that I was referring to that I discovered just 5 minutes ago.

Back in 83 I took a stack of photos of an 80 308 in Florida. I emailed NNO for some info on it yesterday. This is what I got back just now:

1987 offered by Auto Toy Store, Ft. Lauderdale, FL/USA. Black with black leather. Florida car. 32,000 miles.

1996 offered by Auto Classics, Coeur d'Alene, ID. Black with black leather. 25,420 miles, 30,000-mile service done. 25,600 miles. Offered again 1997. Fresh paint.

Jun 2005 offered on eBay. Black with black interior. 29,932 miles. Spokane, WA.


How about that? The funny thing is I have pictures of the odometer that I took myself that summer 26 years ago. They are at home now. I cannot WAIT to get home to see the milage indicated back then.

This is just one example. I have MANY.

Like I said, don't believe those "low miles" when you see them...

 

I have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Seems like private sellers are asking as much or more than a dealer for their cars, then suprised they don't sell...

Folks on this board, and others, are asking the same prices for their cars as they were 2 years ago. The cars just aren't worth the same as before.

I would love to buy a decent 308... But a decent 308 was high 20's 2 years ago (not concours - just a nice driver). Figure it has to be worth 30% or more LESS now. That puts it in the very low 20's... These cars have depreciated just like every other collectible/asset/car.

There are VERY few buyers out there. VERY FEW. Prices have to match that...

Who would have thought that one could buy homes for 50%+ off? I didn't - not in my wildest dreams. Cars have fallen too...

 

I am more in the "preserving" camp, but only because I don't drive that much -- my daily driver doesn't get 8,000-miles a year, and the Ferrari doesn't get more than 1,500 or so in an active year. I'm one of those who wouldn't buy a 60,000-mile Ferrari just because it would take me decades to run a 20,000-mile car past 50,000 miles.

Having gone to many FCA and FOC events, I would say the vast majority of Ferrari owners are in the "preserving" camp. Maybe not for financial reasons, but because we like our cars perfect. In fact, the only reason we can sit around here and jaw about all these low mileage cars is precisely because most Ferrari owners have not taken a "drive the wheels off" philosophy. Also, the speculation of the late 1980s made 308s and 328s sufficiently valuable that I'm sure many were preserved because they became investments immediately upon delivery. (My 328 was something like that -- very low mileage until it changed hands in 1999; prior to that it was strictly a show car, no dust on the coil springs, etc. By 1999, it had probably dropped $100K and settled into the $50K range, at which point the new owner drove it.)

Contrast it with something like a Porsche 944, the entry level Porsche in the 1980s. Almost no one "saved" those, so if for some reason you wanted a 20,000-mile 944 Turbo today it would be quite a hunt.

If you really plan to drive it everywhere, Dr. Tommy did it exactly right: start with a 57,000-mile, good car and take the odometer discount when buying.

Yeah, yeah... Convex wheels are for poseurs. Cool people drive concave.
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You can talk long about this, but rather take your car for a good drive, and enjoy it!

Miles cost money.
Buying thew wrong car costs money.
If the market collapses it costs money.
If the market is strong, you're lucky and you may drive your car for free, or even make some money.

These cars are by no means rare enough to make the mileage unimportant; there will always be low-miles cars, and people who are willing to pay the premium.

I bought my car with 74.000 kilometres on it, it has 85.000 now, benn perfectly reliable and a joy to own. It gets maintained well, if it needs something I do it, and keep it in as good a condition as possible, without going overboard. It needs nothing.

The other day we drove it 350kms through the mountains and over passes, top off, winter in Africa. I wouldn't have missed it for the world, it was -once again- a perfect day. No money in the world can make up for that.

 

my 2 ct

paying a high premium for a low mileage car is highly overrated:

-are you planning to add huge amount of miles to it? Unless you are planning on a use as daily driver, the answer will be : NO so why bother with a high start?
-are you buying it with the intension of selling it? Unless you are for the big win the aswer is: NO ( if you are don't buy a ferrari)
-are the 3x8 so fragile than they could only last for low mileage? No, their bullit proff and the best made. Enough 100.000+ miles cars to back that up
-by buying a low mileage car you want to save on maintenance? no way, most maintenance you will have is age related, not mileage related.

so what's the gain?
(over here in europe the difference in pricing between high and low is very little anyway.)
-

 

Car was listed as for sale in the Ferrari Market Letter in 88 by European Auto in Costa Mesa CA. It was advertised as having severe front end damage and a California title.

 

The market says low mileage Ferrari 308/328s are worth a high premium.

In general, stuff wears out with time and mileage. To some extent, that's true, and that's why a 5,000-mile 328 is always going to be worth more than a 50,000-mile 328, all else being equal.

I have noticed that Europeans tend to drive their Ferraris more, though Nick Cartwright (UK) seems to stock lower-mileage gems.

 

Well played sir...well played. ;-)

 

Talk about that, I often buy stuffs from Italian Ebay, last night, I did a search on 308s on Italian Ebay and almost drowned in my own drools :

http://shop.ebay.it/_Auto__W0QQMarcaZFerrariQQModelloQ2520FerrariZ308QQ_catZ9801QQ_gcsZ13QQ_pcatsZ9800QQ_sopZ10?_rdc=1

 

I agree with you that the value of the car lies in how its maintained. But I'd have to disagree with many of your other statements.

I have a low mileage car. Its been in our family since new. I used to ride in the car and detail it while I was growing up. When I got the car in 2006, the car had 1,358 miles. As a result of the original owner having health problems it was only driven in the summers for a few season and then it sat in storage for more than a decade. The car was like new. The paint was fantastic, the interior smelled like new and had no creases on the seat bolsters, the carpeting looked brand new, and the leather was nice and supple. To be on the safe side I spent about $12K having a major replacing all hoses, seals, belts, bearings, tires etc. If something was questionable I told them replace it and they did. As for mice and rust, depends on how a car is stored, I've seen gears on low mileage cars that were stored properly and they looked brand new!

I am more of a preserving person myself. I live in the north east and only get to use the car part of the year due to weather. But when the weather is nice I enjoy taking the car out for a nice drive. I have about 3,400 miles on the car and have enjoyed every mile of it.

Someone else said that cars that see little mileage are are not regularly serviced with the rational why pay for a service if you don't drive it? Thats just a generalization and not accurate. Although I do not drive it many miles per year my car is regularly serviced, and although I had a major with belts etc in 2006, and many debate how often belts and bearing should be changed, I had them do new belts and bearing this summer. In fact, a few other local owners of low milage 328s that I know have their cars serviced and maintained religously. From what I've seen the people that buy low mileage or reasonable mileage cars maintain them to a very high standard because they a lot of money for their car. From what I've seen its less likely that people spending a premium for a low mileage car are going to skimp on maintenace. I've seen plenty of cars that people bought at a bargain price because the car had several defects and deferred service needs, and then these people never get around to spending the money to repair the defects or to have a real major service. These may have been cars purchased just at the limits of the persons budget and they want a Ferrari but not the responsibility of maintaining one.

As for foul play with odometers...thats been going on since the beginning of time. And sometimes its not foul play so much as someone not really disclosing the odometer has rolled over. I knew a guy that had a Trans Am as a business car in the 1980s. He used to put lots of miles on the car. It only had a 5 digit odometer and would "zero" out at 100K. He'd drive the car about 130-140K and sell the cars with only 30-40K showing and not say anything about it. I'm sure thats happened over the years with several Fcars.

As for cars with 50K miles or more. I have to admit, unfortunately I've seen very few really great examples of high mileage cars. The bulk of 3X8s that I see at the shop my car goes to are either in really nice condition with fewer miles or they have been used as beater cars...paint looks horrible dozens of chips and dents all over the body work, the carpets and engine bays are filthy, interiors are cracked/ripped and worn, and the wheels have been curbed. I think when some of these cars hit the bottom of their depreciation curves many people bought the cars, drove the heck out of them and did the bare minimum when it came to taking care of them.

I think its interesting that everyone is so hard on the owners of low mileage cars as being dishonest etc. But the guys that I've met with low mileage cars spent good money for great examples of cars, and are getting to enjoy a car just as it might have been experienced if they had taken delivery of the car new 20 years ago. I see nothing wrong with that. If someone wants to buy a higher mileage car or spend less money, then by all means do it. No one makes someone buy an ultra low mileage car or a ultra high mileage car. Its a choice that people make with any car be it a Ferrari, a Porsche, or anything else. Personally I think there is a separate group of cars and owners not previously mentioned that have very low mileage cars say 15K or less. They paid a premium for them and these are honest examples. Look at the undersides, the interiors, the engine bays, and the exteriors and you can tell they are the real deal. The cars that sometimes show 35-50K, but look beaten to death and have no records or paper work...those are the ones to wonder about...is it 45,000 miles or 145,000 miles?

I'm glad to hear that there are 3X8s that have 100K+ miles on them, and that are on their original clutches. Its a testament as the quality of these cars and makes me feel great that I could enjoy this car for many years (hopefully decades) and many thousands of miles.

Best regards,
Dino

 

I don't think the higher priced, nice cars aren't selling. I haven't looked at the 308/328 market lately but I would venture to guess that nice examples of each aren't collecting a lot of dust. Maybe they are sitting around for a few months but not a lot longer.

There are also very few nice examples to choose from. My hunch is pricing for nice examples is about where it should be. No doubt demand has dropped over the last year and there has been some discounting of these models. But if you find a nice example for a high price it's not like you can just pass on that one and move on to the next fifteen choices. Maybe the next three-five choices.

Decent 308s are not 30% off just because say, Florida condos, are 30%-50% off. I just wrote that demand for these cars has dropped over the last year, due to the economy. But also, demand for these models has gone up due to nostalgia and other reasons. So in total, overall demand may actually be at the same place it was two years ago.

-F

 

One reason why I'm in the driver category:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217186

 

Hi Dino, I would say that you are the exception to the rule and therefore don't really fall into the masses of which I was talking about. You are maintaining your car meticulously and to be honest, in your case it may not even have mattered so much if you had bought a nice high mileage car, you could have saved some money that way when buying it and considering the amount you spend on maintenance, it may have driven possibly the same.
You could have spent the initial 12k to redo the suspension and the interior etc.

Helmut