My 348 starts easily when cold, but if I drive it for 20 minutes and everything is hot... it is nearly impossible to start. It cranks over and over nearly catching so often, but is very difficult to start. Once it does start while hot, it sputters for a bit until it finally reaches a proper healthy idle and sound. Any ideas? J
Do you hear any rattling when you turn the car off? If so you may need to repack the flywheel. Also, try running a search of the archives as this topic has been touched before.
Preliminary Test: For a test, start the 348 when it is cold, drive it until it is warm/hot. Now turn the ignition off and as soon as the engine has stopped, immediately try to start it up again. This will make two "starts" in sum. Done. This test should help you pinpoint if the problem is a failing battery (cells can fail when hot that work when cold), flywheel grease issue (see primary tests below), or fuel pressure regulator/leaky fuel injector/check valve...because: ... if the car does immediately start back up when hot per above 2nd start (Hurray! Cheers!), then you probably have a fuel pressure issue (e.g. fuel pressure regulator/leaky fuel injector/check valve/fuel pump, etc.). This is because it takes a minute or two for even a failing pressure component to allow the fuel pressure to drop after the engine stops, so a quick restart of the engine when hot inside that first minute would cause the whole engine system to behave as though you didn't have a fuel pressure leak (faulty component hasn't had time to bleed away fuel pressure yet). NOTE: Fuel pressure regulators are Ferrari part number 147281 (Bosch #0 280 160 731 available for $138 at thepartsbin.com), about $145 each at Ricambi or an outrageous $500+ at Ferrari dealerships. But...I'm reasonably sure that they are just AC Delco FP regulators. The AC Delco part number is 217-2119 and the GM part number is 35476530. You can get them for $81 each here if you don't mind forgoing the pretty yellow Ferrari shipping box: http://www.autopartsgiant.com/CAT_FRAMEX.cfm . The STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS FP Regulator # PR171 (~~$75 at RockAuto.com) should work on our 348's, as well. The AirTex Fuel Pressure Regulator for our 348's is only $59 at RockAuto.com, too. These fuel pressure regulators should all be exactly the same, and interchangeable at will. However, some 348's may use Bosch Fuel Pressure Regulator 0 280 160 738, instead. The difference between the 2 FPR's is the 731 regulator uses a rubber hose clamped with a hose clamp. The 738 version uses hard compression type fittings. ...if your 348 does not restart immediately when you perform the above test, then your problem is not fuel pressure loss related (e.g. might be flywheel grease or other issue). So do the above test! It's fast, easy, no mess, no grease, and free! IF your problem turns out to be your fuel pressure regulator (FPR), then here is how to replace them both: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121977 The reason that the re-start test above works is that it takes a few minutes for a fuel pressure leak to actually reduce your fuel pressure so low that your car has difficulty re-starting (this isn't a problem when your engine is cold because the 348 has "cold start" programming that kicks in to supply extra fuel/pressure)...whereas a hot start problem from something like flywheel grease causing flywheel vibrations will be present all of the time when your car is hot.
NODOUBT: indeed my car starts up fine when hot if I restart it within a minute. However, if I go into a store and come out a few minutes later, it is very hard to start. Fuel pressure regulator sounds reasonable. Could it possibly be the fuel pump? Aren't there two on that car? J
Don't mess with the fuel pumps (at this point). Ernie has a great write-up on how to refresh fuel pumps, but don't touch them first. This is because "new" fuel pumps are so powerful that they can make up for a slow fuel pressure leak. Trouble is, those fuel pumps going all out will only make up for a failing FPR for so long. Then you are right back to your hot start problem again. FPR's are cheap. FPR's are easy to replace. Do them first! If the hot start problem persists after two new FPRs, then we can do some quick tests to see if you need some fuel pump attention.
Ok, thanks for the expert advice. I've read your walkthrough on how to replace the FPR and will do that first. I notice that Ricambi has updated their FPR and pricing: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=200677 Should I go with those or the ones you mention? I worry that if they are a true Ferrari part, they may fail again. I just want something that will work long term. J
It's just a Bosch FPR either way. I'd go with Daniel at Ricambi for speed/service, or wait a few more days to pay a few bucks less at Rockauto: http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/prt,23,0280160738 Do two while you're in there. Replace them both.
This is all good advice. Having had the same problem, in my situation the solution was not intuitive. After installing Dave Helms' connector kit (replacing the connectors in each terminal between the wiring loom and sensors) my hot start problem has completely gone away and not returned. I suspect it was related to my ignitors as the termination point from the wires to the ignitor connector were particularly corroded (the boots tend to dry up and crack over time). Previously I had checked my FPR's, repacked the flywheel, removed the bullet connectors and run straight wire on the positive and negative battery cables, cleaned starter motor connection, etc. with no improvement in hot start problems.
NODOUBT: I went down to the parts store and they cross referenced the BOSCH part number with the AC DELCO one you also mentioned. They have ordered two for me and they should arrive Monday. More when the FPR are installed! J
+1, the flywheel can also cause hard starting when warm. If you do notice any rattling (from the flywheel) when you shut the engine off, time to check for clutch fluid leaks, replace triple seals, and repack the flywheel.
WAG flywheel grease. The start within a minute is not a valid test because it takes time for hot grease to sag and cause an imbalance. In fact with a bad FW I would expect a fast restart upon immediate shut down. Now if 20 mins later you sprayed starter fluid in there and it fired right up maybe you got a fuel problem.
Just an update on my FPR project: I ordered the parts from Ricambi (147281) but upon installing them, one fitting (the horizontal one) didn't go on properly. It seems that the ones I was sent aren't the ones on my 1994 348 spyder. Any advice? Pic attached on new part from Ricambi and old fitting on car. Below it, a pic of the old part. J Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I had one of those. It took me 1 year and a fellow race buddy with an SD2 to narrow down the search...it was a bad connection of course.
My thinking is the connector kit should be part of any major on the 10+ year old models - for the cost of the kit it just doesn't make sense not to do it and eliminate that part of the equation.
I spoke with Daniel from Ricambi via email today and his part look up mentions that both early and late 348s take the same part. Clearly there is an error in the part look up. Does anyone have a link or part number to the later 348 fuel pressure regulator? Thanks everyone! J
The parts books are right there on Daniel's site. If you link to the 348 Spider section, it shows table 9, item #63, 147281, pressure regulator. If you link to the 348 tb/ts section, table 9, item #73, it shows the same thing, 147281, pressure regulator. BUT --- If you look in the box in the lower left corner of the illustration, it shows item #67, "Valid till USA engine Nr25013", 137960, pressure regulator. So apparently they sent you the regulator for the early engine, and it isn't the same as the regulator for the later engine. Of course the regulator and the hose have to be matching styles, or else you have to modify the fittings. Was there a tech bulletin about that?
This is the one you received: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=198409 And this is the one you need: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=200677 But if you look closely at the image on the site the picture for 147281 appears to be 137960. I'm just guessing here but maybe Daniel has the sku's crossed up on these parts?
The Eurospares diagram appears to show the correct FPR: http://www.eurospares.co.uk/searchResult.asp?find=&M=&Mo=&A=&B=&S=147281+ 147281 Dennis McCan's website shows #147281 to really be Bosch #0280160738...but I don't see a picture of that Bosch part on the web. Rock Auto has that part in stock on the cheap, but they don't show a picture. https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/prt,23,0280160738 Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just an update: I returned the incorrect FPRs to Ricambi and ordered the new ones from RockAuto (since Ricambi didn't let me know if they could send me the correct ones even after numerous emails). I was also hearing that there could be an issue with the connectors on the AMP plugs to the sensors. Where are the AMP plugs? Anyone have a diagram? Thanks all! J
Amp plugs are electrical. Black plastic wiring connectors unrelated to fuel pressure regs. New or better Amp plugs will improve signal voltages which can solve many gremlins.
I think the "AMP plugs" you have been warned about are the connectors to the crank position sensors down at the lower front of the engine. These are well known to cause running problems on the 348, either due to loose pins or cracked/broken wires where they attach to the pins (under the rubber boots), or due to contamination from oil and/or coolant leaks. We've had threads recently about replacing the original Ferrari/Bosch sensors with less expensive Kia sensors. Also, it's still entirely possible that you have a flywheel problem.
