Need a Hose Source?

This hose will not tolerate a "lazy" install, one has to work to gain the benifits it was designed with. Mounting it on a corroded nipple will give no better service than the cheap options. We are now even considering making a kit of the tools and products we use in the shop to restore the tubes its is being fit on. If we would have just thrown it on the market, charged a lot of money for exceptional hose and not considered the problems folks would be faced with when using it we would have dropped the ball. A "package" or a "kit" is just that, something that deals with every short coming that can be predicted...anything short of that is just a part.

...and so became 'Scuderia Rampante Innovations', a company making solutions.
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Yes, and then some....

 

That corroded nipple has been addressed by Hill Engineering:

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=190362

 

Sean,

At least the poor fitting NAPA hose is rated "For Fuel"....
One of the more recent 3x8 cars I recently worked on had "Gates Vulco" hose, designed specifically for antifreeze. (Insert sarcasm here: But, at least it was the correct size)

And folks wonder why we see, or appear to see Ferrari's go up in flames?

David

 

Agreed to an extent. At twenty five years old they have done an admirable job and owe us nothing, one reason I decided not to redesign that hose, the test of time has proven it an adequate design. What your findings do highlight is the need for all of these hoses to be critiqued which is something few of us have been doing. This abrasion you are finding is also a problem with the fuel hoses and others and is what led to a newly designed part (MJ, you have an email) a few owners are now about to test. Feedback from these test's will determine how we will proceed in that area.

In reality the same can be said for the OEM fuel hoses but with that area the playing field has been changed when we started making fuel out of organics yet retained the same rubber compounds used for fossil fuels. The challenge is not done yet as when one mixes organics with fossil and then throw in additives to hold them in suspension.... there's a WHOLE LOT more work being done, the hose to retain the concoction was just the start.

When the kits these three owners have are fit to the cars and all of their concerns are addressed in full I will have everything listed in FerrariAds.com and will provide a link to those listings. Until that time this is a test of a theory that all of the engineers have signed off on and assure me is sound. Now its up to a few owners to tell me their opinions as this is a FChat community project and their opinions are what really matters.

Dave

 

Interesting observations...

I recently changed the fuel return hose on a 308QV (cloth covered). Although the hose "appeared" to be in good condition, once the car got hot, fuel literally sprayed through the cloth fibres...Needless to say, but typical of these original hoses, they're "hard as rocks" at the nipple ends and require a gentle touch to remove them (without breaking the nipples).

Definately not the funnest project in the Ferrari sandbox of long overlooked items that needed attention yesterday...

Have fun!
David

 

WOW!!!! Dave, that's an impressive array of hoses.....GREAT JOB...as usual..lol

 

Dave,
Will you sell bulk length hoses. Im going to start a major and have always cut my hoses myself. I found that some especially coolant hoses need to be larger than the ferrari part to fit without rubbing in certain areas. I also have a small fortune in SS awab hose clamps that are new that I am quite fond of. I am going to do every hose. luckily all my aluminum pipes and nipples are like new. Do you have the filler hose also? Can you make the visible fuel hoses black to make everything look tidy, also will they be alcohol safe? Im running BMW fuel safe hose now and OEM coolant hoses with no problems I only run the cloth hose on breather tubes etc.

Rob

This would save me endless hours sourcing......... I will need a whole set within a month or two will you have them available by them?

Rob
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I just received all of Dave's fuel line kit this weekend..I plan on trying to complete this project before Monterey Week and will post photos of the entire process if time allows. I can say that Dave has been fantastic to work with and I look forward to installing "correct" hoses that fit..

 

No short way to answer it so...

I had not considered full lengths with the exception of for the Mondial / Dino belly pan hoses and for shop orders. I had all of the coolant hose made to 12 ft lengths to make sure I was able to deal with these belly pan hoses. I am pricing it by the foot but cut it in house to the lengths that I have found over the years to work for each application. Its a bugger to cut cleanly without special bench mounted cutters (there went another $600 as we couldnt do it by hand) but if folks want it that way....sure. One always has a concern over how a product such as this shows in the end but I am not against the request. We have searched to find a method to market this where it doesn't cause us undue brain damage by "personalizing" each part sold but in the end....what ever folks want is what we will do.

Clamps...now there is a very interesting (read boring) question. I would have to see a sample of the clamps you are thinking of using....not all are created equal and it takes special clamps for each design of hose. Three days of conference calls between hose and clamp engineers...who woulda thunk. All I care about is that what ever is put on our hose works properly and will not cause damage to it. Hell, I have even had requests to test our hose with the old wind up band clamps....one has to ask, do you want it to work or to look pretty...we tried to do both as there was an incredible amount of effort put towards making a dull, boring, black hose with minimal labeling that could be hidden. If other clamps work...good. I can say that there was a cooperative effort between our clamp and hose manufacturers and that is all I can speak towards.

Filler neck hose ( 6th generation...I threw away a lot of hose until we were satisfied) is pictured next to the cross over hoses. They are brick red because of a Arimid / Nomex covering to add to the heat and fire resistance I insisted on in the design and so I can make sure they are easily visually identified for critical applications...there is a valid reason (in this meager mind)they are not black. The only applications I could think of where they could be seen was the oil drain back on the rear of the 1/4 head (post carbed cars, not enough demand to justify making these molded but I am making a fitting for using it on those cars) and possibly up on the firewall cross over vent applications. I have thought about attempting to dye these for those applications but my focus has been on function over fashion and that has been a remote concern of mine as they are not very visible when mounted.

I cant speak to the design or function of others hose but can say I have yet to find any designed specifically for today's fuel and beyond. Two weeks after we finished the initial design work (I use "we" far too liberally as the engineers are the real focal point there), three major Auto Manufacturers approached my hose manufacturer and said "we have a problem"..... our answer was "...and we have a solution"...who knows how big this will get now
You can rest assured if there was a valid safe alternative on the market, I sure could find other things to do with my money and time than make Hose! Likely the least glamorous and exciting thing I have ever involved myself in.... Turbo's, Superchargers, Big Cams....anything but Hose! There wasn't anything available and I have to stand behind my work at our shop....so we made hose. I am done tolerating this consumer acceptable crap we buy now, if I cant purchase exceptional quality, I will make it. I *****ed about it for years on this site and am now doing something about it in a great many product lines, hose is just the begining. Dumbest thing in the history of mankind....throw money at this kind of thing in this economy...I had no choice if I insist on quality.

I agree on the cloth Breather hose.... works pretty well. I might have mistaken what M.James posted regarding this hose (no might about it, I just re-read his post...ADD on my part, my mistake, sorry M.James) as I was thinking he was speaking about the Blow-By system only. As David pointed out, when the German Cloth Braided hose is used in the fuel application...it fails miserably and on the carbed cars I have watched entire lengths go sopping wet the moment the pump started... at 2.5 PSI...on my own darn car's! Enough failures of any one product line leads to this type of extreme response. Most folks on here deal with one car, one time every 4-5 years..... we deal with 6-8 different cars daily which allows us to see a pretty good track record of any product line. For numerous proven and valid reasons both the fuel and coolant hoses currently being offered just don't cut it for us, others may feel differently.

They will all be available when Mikey P., M.James and Mark R. says they have passed the owner install test. I have requested each to be extremely critical in every regard as this will be done right or not at all. If I am unable to satisfy each and every concern of theirs this will remain a shop install product line only, this is a test of weather its owner ready or not. I already have shops (including our own) using these products but the true test of a product is what the end user thinks about it hands on. If I can make them satisfied, all is good and it will be posted on this sites ads, if not....it will be delayed until changes are implemented and any concerns resolved.

 

Dave, very impressive. Even though I just changed all of my fuel lines, once you get the kits complete, I am in for a full set.

As previoulsy noted, some hoses need to be longer than than stock. For me one side of the of balance tube hoses on my 328 needed to be about an inch longer than the other. The for me was buying the one OE 328 hose and one OE TR hose.

 

Gerry,

Any data such as that is very valuable to me and is researched until it is understood in full. Can you provide a specific part number and which location gets what length for what reason.

Surely if you ran into a problem, others have been making due with what is on hand. Now is the time to fix it while this is still young.

Any other suggestions? Fastradio and I have discussed a number of them and agree on all we talked about.

 

Dave,
I am willing to be the test bed for the GT4 as my car is stock and in good shape. I will obiviously pay for all the parts and give feedback as to sizes. I think there are slight but significant differences between the GT4 and other 308's. I am not a fast worker having only weekends but I am planning on taking my car apart for a full service at least by sept 1st.

My preference would be pre cut hose I am just worried that a few pieces may be too long or short for the GT4 maybe this is where I could help. I have all the parts books 74, 76, & 79 so I could also help withe the numbers. I just would love a one stop source. Dave, dont discount your work on this hose thing, It could be a big thing for you (and us).


Here are some pages of the hose clamps I bought, I think they may have changed ownes but they are very nice and quite pricey, they are used on allot of OEM and watercraft applications. I am not an expert but these are about the nicest clamps I have ever used, maybe with the exception of those self tightening clamps I have only seen pics of.


These are what I am using without the tails:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1718&familyName=AWAB+316+Stainless+Steel+Hose+Clamps

http://www.awabllc.com/aboutus/index.html

These are simillar but not as nicely made:

http://www.ultimategarage.com/abaprice.html

http://www.abamarine.com/aba-mar-specs.html

http://www.bakerprecision.com/hoseclmp.htm

It looks like the OEM Norma company is also making these under their brand name though not as nice as the others

http://82.145.133.139/kunden/norma/ttw.nsf/id/EN_ABA_12mm_Acid_Resistant_Details



Rob

 

Dave,

My problem was with part 114277, the hose for a 328 fuel tank balance tube (red circled part in diagram). That part is 3.25 " long (second photo). However, on my car the balance tube is not centered and does not align well with the tank nipples. The wire reinforced hose I had bought as a part of a kit was too thick and too stiff, hence the decision to buy the OEM part.

So while part 114277 is 3.25" long, the hoses that came off of my car were 3.5" and 5".0 long. The solution offered by ferrarioldman was to use the TR hose, part number 116270. That TR hose is 34mm x 128mm, or about 5" long. It was a perfect match. It seems others ran into the same problem. So I used 114277 on one side and 116270 on the other side.
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Now I understand. Yes, agreed, on occation those are too short for comfort. Without my notes handy I recall the factory hose being 90mm which agrees with your measurements. I cut all of my cross over tube hoses to 110mm as I have found this to work on all occations to date. This makes them a bit too long for many applications but I figure its better to trim back a little than to stretch it.

I have only heard of the wire impregnated hose and had no experiance with using it. I did how ever order a length of fill neck hose from a good Ferrari supplier of ours that was every bit of 1/4" wall thickness when attempting to find an answer to this delimna. There was no humanly possible way this could be used....it would have taken exhaust system band clamps to seal it off and then I question if the aluminum tube would have crushed! I was told it works....someone must have had sucess but its beyond me how.

 

This is a far more common problem than you'd think. For many years, the supplied 114277 hose was at least 90mm in length, as supplied by Ferrari. Typically on the 308 and 328 cars, the crossover tube was not "centered" between the two tanks...so even fitting the 90mm 114277 was a challenge, to ensure good fittment. I can say for certain when the change occured, but sometime in the last 5-10 years, the 114277 length was shortened to 85mm! This will and does pose a fittment problem on most of these cars, as you've experienced. The TR hose is a solid, viable alternative.

Dave and I have had a few conversations on just this subject, as I had a string of 3x8 car come in with the original crossover hoses. To play it safe, in terms of proper fittment, I use a 34mm x 100mm, typical length hose on these cars. The "wire imbedded" hose kits that were circulating awhile back were not the solution, as fittment on the tank nipples was near impossible, even with the vehicle on a lift. Even with the correct length crossover hoses (say 100mm+), there's a "trick" to get both hoses on equally..and securely. If this helps any, I typically loosen and move the center crossover tubeup and out of the way to get one side on, first.

David

 

Yesterday I had a conversation with a dear old friend/past coworker who owns a repair shop in Minneapolis. He is going to do some testing for me but says it is already being pumped. Why waste time and stop at 15% when you can just jump to 20%.... California has now been beaten to the punch by the folks in the Norwegian Rivera (I can say that as I am a native of the MN Tundra)...that wont last long. Will CA jump to 25% to 'one up' the Midwest gang? At least they still have a sense of humor and can laugh about this.

If there was ever any doubt, its now gone...its coming. To hell with dealing how to burn this concoction, containing it will be the first hurdle and is the sole reason we went through this whole adventure we set out on....NOW the effort is justified. The OEM hose and most replacement hoses can just barely tolerate a tested 10% blend...stretch it to 15% as we have found happens locally and the failure is quite swift... TWENTY (!) percent will be interesting.... "Coming to a Station near you..."

We are working on a number of designs to deal with burning this mixture in the Ferrari's now that the containment issues are all either on the shelf or underway in production.

Coppied from a News11 article from Minneapolis, July 23rd.

""""The Minnesota Legislature has decided that by 2013, all gasoline sold in Minnesota will be E20.

The state contracted with the University of Minnesota to determine how cars will act on E20.

"Twenty percent blend is not a very high blend and most of the vehicles are relatively modern, and most modern spark ignition vehicles have a feedback control on the fuel injection system that should be able to compensate for moderate changes in fuel," said Professor David Kittelson.

He's a professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Minnesota, charged with doing the drivability research on E20 fuel.

"When we get into deep winter, then there probably will be some problems because with a higher ethanol blend, you may have a little bit more difficulty when the engine is very cold right on starting, and initial driving off," he said.

"That's the expectation. But we have an open mind," he laughed.""""

 

As you have had some first hand experiance with the wire hose.... I will ship off a sample today for you to test fit.

 

Gerry,

When the opportunity presents itself...

Slide under the car and press your thumb into the new crossover hose between the two aluminum tubes. I suspect that the new hose will feel much like a rubber band if its been in for a week or two and will not feel like what you installed unless you have found a source of pure gas in your area.

We did an engine out on a TR a number of months back and replaced the lower fuel hoses with the OEM...by the time the engine went back in they were already stretchy.

 

Hey Dave, an update please on your progress with the 355 coolant hoses.

Those silicone coolant hoses coming out of England are crap....... I wouldn't even put them on my 1990 Dodge Omni.

 

Well now, I can see the Georgia stills are running and churning out some of the finest.... sampling a little of the product are we?

Just got the forming mandrel from our Fab shop...all thats left is to final polish and start building hoses.
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THAT is "SEXY," Dave. [Inside joke].

 

Dave, My girlfriend wants to know if batteries are included...

 

"""Dave, My girlfriend wants to know if batteries are included... """"

I just knew it.......