Interesting. What is above? Below? What was the total volume of fuel that produced that 'buffy coat' layer? How long did it take to settle out, and how easily is it dispersed? If you hung a few strips of metal (steel, aluminum, pot metal) in there, could we see the effects of the metal compared to the position of the buffy coat? Science project time! LOL Thanks again from all of us for taking the time to look into all this.
Gas above, alcohol/water below. This test was done with the intention for finding the alcohol content in a given amount of pump fuel so water was added to the sample being tested. This IS NOT a static seperation test but an intentional seperation of the gas and alcohol. Hell, I have little knowledge in this area and learn something new on each test. I try a test, read and then try again until I get tests that confirm one another and still dont know what I am seeing or what I am doing. I am trying my best to understand it but have a long way to go. Good idea. I will hand some raw aluminum in the boundry layer and date the start of the test and see what happens in a few weeks. I am reaching a point where I am starting to ask myself what I can do about it if anything. If the answer is nothing, I am backing down on much of this and considering it learned knowledge and let someone smarter than myself come up with a cure/fix/solution/mechanic-in-a-can product to protect the components. Interesting topic for me to learn regardless of the outcome. I can say I know much more that before I started and have changed many daily procedures accordingly because of it. Dave
Mark, did you find a good source for hose clamps yet? The specialized autoparts store that I use to get my stuff from has them. I tend to use the fuel injection type clamps for this diameter hose (fully wraps around the hose and has a nut and bolt to tighten the clamp). Alternatively, you could use Oettiker clamps. Even better, plus they look great! Not expensive either.... Holler if you'd like me to get a bunch of the FI type clamps. Postage from Holland to Germany will not be prohibitive, I'd think.... Cheers, Hans
This thread kind of makes a guy think twice before putting the car away for the winter with a full tank of gas.
Yes, I agree BUT.... I have whitnessed what happens to the effected hose once it drys out. Shrinks to dickens and becomes hard as a rock. I go back and forth as to the best way to store them now but have landed on the side of a full tank until I find a better way. I am even leaning toward running the engine for 20 mins a few times during the winter to turn the tank (sounds like a damn compost pile!) over a bit and keep the hoses up at the carbs damp which goes against what I have suggested for the last 30 years. If this is done I would surely have a fire bottle near and watch closely for any leaks up high where things might have dryed out. No way a hose clamp will retain a seal if the hose shrinks as I have seen. The hoses on the injected cars in a pressure application appear to be uneffected as the SAE spec'd high pressure fuel hose to a 30R9 which has different liner compounds. That helps a little but the fill, transfer and vent hoses are still R7 from what I have seen on the pre 2000 cars. I am still working to identify if the rubber on the late cars was changed or if it remained the same to date. I fully agree with Hans on the FI type clamps for the fuel lines, far better design for this application. The Oeittker clamps are very good as well but a PITA to deal with, I use these only where removal is highly unlikely in the next 10 years. I finally had the company I am dealing with for the silicone coolant hose clamps special order me in hundreds of the stainless nut and bolt clamps as they were impossible to locate around here.
One of the car storage products is a zippered sealed bag that includes several jars of moisture absorbing desicant. Silica gel I believe. Creates a totally dry environment within the bag and thus the car it contains. One wonders if this could prove beneficial with winter storage and this fuel problem. Back in the day during petrol strikes here in Oz fuel became priceless. Many a tank had those last few gallons floated up to the outlet by running a garden hose into the garage tank. The outlet was up to 6" above the tank bottom. Of course once the strike was over random outbreaks of water in fuel, stopping cars, was the norm.
It might be interesting to note that after replacing all my original hoses including Fuel and Coolant as well as all vapor lines, I could not find a single hose cracked or seemingly worn in any way. I cut some of them length wise just to see if there was any deteroration. I have read many posts by people saying their hoses were just about to let go. All of mine looked to be in very good shape. The car is kept at pretty much a constant 40 degrees temperature in the garage. I wonder if that temp. has helped prolong hose life.
Too many variables. I had never, in 36 yrs seen such a thing with hose before this summer..... Some examples had the hoses shrunk to the point where there were bad fuel leaks at the vent hoses when the tanks were full, some were hard, some were still pliable. I have an F40 apart now where the fuel pump rubber components and the tank cross hoses are pure crumbling gumbo but the fill hoses are as pliable and resilient as the day they were put on with zero signs of aging in any way. In hindsite I wish I would have kept some of the failed hose so I could show an example but one major hose company now has that and promised a quick lab analysis 3-4 months ago... I'm not smart enough to answer the "why", only suppositions and semi educated guesses. Time, money and work load forced me to give up on the "Why" and focus on the "How to fix it and what does work". As a shop owner I have to view this as a safety issue where I want a 100-200% safety margin and when I view it as a Ferrari owner that looks like a good number to me. Upside to all this is the issue is now openly discussed and the owners know about it. What caused it will plague me for sometime to come. The chemical engineers I am working with understand it and that's good enough for me as I spec's my parts from them to be "resistant to any know liquid or solid fuel someone might put in a cars tank". Heck, I even told them I wanted it moth ball resistant as I read here of this idea. There was a delay in our conference call for the parties on the other end to regain their composure after those two statements from me.
I bought one of your kits and it's still not installed, I'm a little concern now after reading this stuff, I have the yellow stripe SAE J1527 USCG Type A-2, is this what you quit supplying? If so can I get the latest spec. hose? Any one gone to braided lines between tank and cross over?
Thats Marine Grade and is fine....If you are concerned I am going to offer an upgrade to the existing hose kits that have already been supplied for $75.00 to change the rest to R9. Keep in mind this is a fuel issue as well and can affect the aluminum tanks. I would suggest starting the car evey few weeks to circulate the fuel and inhibit settlement/sepperation of the alcohol. So far, My car has sat up to a month with no issues and the same hoses have held up for almost a year. As long as the car is being used it does not appear to be a problem.
Let's be very careful here gentlemen....... USCG Ratings: Type A = Fire rated tested for x temp and x min's on hose burn through. Type B = NOT Fire rated tested. Code: 1 vs 2 Code 1= Submersible (Constant fuel in line - like the cross over joints in a Ferrari 308) Code 2= Fuel fill only, not for constant fuel in hose. Summary: For cross over joints use only A1 or B1 never A2 or B2 as there is constant fuel in the lines.....
Hello from Germany, did you achieve any results regarding this test ? the E10 issue now arrived in Europe. Best Regards and thank you Martin
Yes. I knew something was a foot in Europe as I have dealt with a few sample's of failed hose's and components from various regions there. Looks, feels and smells like the same failures we are having here so I suspected as much. The aluminum issue is very real but short term testing (5.5 months) shows it to be a concern I have time to deal with. Its real enough that the Marine industry pulled aluminum tanks and exchanged them for plastic. If the US Coast Guard saw this to be a big enough issue... I have a system we designed and prototyped that is close to being tested right now to deal with just this problem. Lacking a laboratory setting, I mocked up a spare fuel tank on top of a pallet rack where it wouldn't be disturbed and filled it up with pump gas. I have been taking small samples from this set up once a month and having each one tested. Far from scientific but its the best I can do on a limited time and resources budget and comes pretty close to a real world situation we might face when the cars sit. At the end of a 6 month test period my plan is to start over again with our prototype employed in the same test. Too simple a test to be conclusive in its results but better than nothing at all. Both the engineers I am working with and myself feel fully confident we have the hose and in-tank component issues completely resolved now. Folks with the vintage cars employing the yellow fabric hose and the carbs with exposed accelerator diaphragms best be vigilant in monitoring those as I am now seeing many failures in these areas. Just finished a Lamborghini 400GT that would leave a trail behind it.
Starting to see this on the Boxer, more frequently now. I used to go 5-6 years on pump diaphragms; whereas now, the norm seems to be two years, or less... Just one more thing to add to the check list... David
Does anyone know of a source for 1 3/8" or 1.5" Marine A1 or B1 fuel hose? Or for that matter, metric 35 MM hose that is rated for continuous fuel immersion? The local marine shops here just have A2 stuff I was thinking, though.... I found a source for some 1.44: ID by 1.496" OD teflon tube,and was pondering sticking that inside some regular 1.5: fuel filler hose. I may work, but if not, it is a $50 experiment consigned to the trash. There is also MIL- 6000 aircraft stuff, though it doesn't appear to have gasoline as part of the tests. And, teflon lined, rubber and fabric covered chemical hose, but I don't think it will compress well from 1.5" ID down to 1.380". I suppose some 1.375" ID by 1/16" Viton O rings could be used as compression fillers. Doug
Three FChatters are test fitting our hose we designed and are now making. Once they give the nod its on the market. Nomex/Arimid covering, silicone body and a liner designed for today and tomorrow's fuel's. We have it on a few dozen cars now for quite some time and it has proven trouble free. Do a search and you will find some photo's of it posted in other threads. We tried them all before we decided to make our own. Dave
