Is the 355 based on the 348?

LOL!

 

All this silly debate of 355 being better than 348s or vice versa.

All I can relate is that every time I am on a track with 355s, they end up being moving pylons for me. Either on the straights or through the corners. And if I have slicks on the car...... forget about it! After each session I see these poor 355 guys sniffing around to try and figure out what just happened.

I do have a few tweaks, but nothing major. I guess the 348 is more of the 'driver's car'.

 

Hi

24 heures DU Mans

Power steering is a good thing. Try to play with a setup at 7deg without power steering.
The official 360 (JBL Racing) had to give up at Le Mans in 2004 for that (stupid) reason...

I totally agree with that.

 

Sorry, should have made it clear we're not talking about the arcade game 348 challenge, but the actual cars. I'm sure you'll notice a difference when you actually drive the cars instead of playing with the joystick

+355!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (This stuff is too funny, you know, I just can't make this stuff up!)
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That's all true. But, this car has you beat (no battery, no alternator, no power brakes, no airbags, passive shocks, manual steering, no windshield wipers, no ... well, many things are missing really. Lots of weight savings!

I hear it has similar performance to the 348 even though it is a bit earlier design. Handling however seems to not be the 348's strength in the comparison...

You can harp on minimalist design, but it only makes you look well.... bang bang chitty chitty bang bang...
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Lol!!

 

They may feel that way, but they would be wrong.

The only relationship between the 348 and the earlier cars is that the Mondial's T (the last version of Mondial) engine was carried over in to the 348.
Aside from sharing no body components with any of the earlier cars, the 348 also has a monocoque chassis with a subframe for the engine, while all earlier Ferrari's have a tube frame chassis.
You could say that the 348 is the beginning of modern Ferrari's
The 355 is an evolution of the 348, the 355 uses a different engine and has many other improvements ( suspension geometry for a start) but are nevertheless closely related, in that they are essentially the same design and the same size.
The 360 is (completely) different again, it's bigger than a 355 and it's monocoque is made of aluminium for a start.

M

 

I'm confused.. The 348 doesn't have power steering?? I think mine does and lot's of other ones too. I must admit that the power steering is nothing compared to my '95 Nissan (even), but still, I think it's powered slightly?

Thanks for clearifing.

 

348s do not have power steering.

 

+355

The 348 does not have power steering because the 348 cannot afford to lose any HP ....... the factory knew they did not stand a chance at Le Mans with a 'standard' 348 engine ...... hence the development of the Competizione .......... lessons learned from Competizione development, manifested themselves into what became one of the best engines ever made for a production car ............ in the awesome 355 .........


............ the 348 has 'engine in common' with the 4 seat Mondial ......... where as the 355, has 'engine in common' with the 360 and the legendary CS .......... merging the best of two worlds ............ a final styling iteration that started with the 308/288GTO ........... and an engine that was so good it, was carried over into the next model .......... the only way the factory could improve on the awesome 355 engine ...... was to bump up displacement by almost a full liter (0.8L) on the 430 ........ to gain only 50hp ......... to add perspective ........ the 355 only added 0.1 liter and gained over 50 HP on even the best of street 348s ............. a testament to the inovative greatness of the 355 engine .........
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TRUTH!
+355!!!

 

Do correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologise in advance if this seems impertinent for someone who has yet to own a Ferrari, but didn't that innovative greatness you're referring to in the 355 engine result in the first variant of the most difficult and expensive to maintain engine generation in the V8 Ferrari lineup?

All those valves might be great when new but, at the risk of re-hashing the earlier conversation, they did appear to cause problems:

Also, you yourself admit that the F430 dropped the number of valves as well as increased the displacement:

As such, lauding the 85bhp increase of the 355 over the 348 for a 0.1 litre displacement increase is not really comparable to the 50bhp increase of the F430 over the 355 for a 0.8 litre displacement increase.

In LdM's Ferrari, usability, reliability, and ease of maintenance from the cars was given increased importance and that meant the additional valves had to go. As LdM was appointed Ferrari President in 1991 and the 355 went into production in 1994, I'm willing to bet this engine configuration (minor subtle changes) was 'locked' before he took control of the company and offered serious direction to the design companies. He seems widely credited with the 355's revitalisation of the Ferrari marque, but I sometimes wonder if he merely accelerated plans that were put into motion before his arrival.

I'd say he was probably the one who ordered the reduction back to 4 valves per cylinder in the interests of maintenance. I'm sure owners would rather spend a little more burning a bit of extra fuel to get the aforementioned power than they would spending money replacing bronzed valve guides... bit of a difference in cost there.

I would also argue that absolute power is not the be-all-and-end-all of exotic cars. The 348 doesn't have power steering, thus putting the driver into direct contact with his steering and the road. The 348 doesn't have traction control, meaning that drivers need to be more in touch with the needs of their car's posterior and again are more involved with the drive. You highlight these as points that detract from the magnificence of the Ferrari 348 and proceed to balance the 355 on a pedestal... however, if you're going to be spending a fortune maintaining an exotic car, surely you'd want the driving experience to be all the more visceral for it? The 355 needs the extra power to provide the thrills that power steering and traction control are taking away from your driving experience! Really, if you want traction control and power steering, then cars such as the BMW M3 can give it to you with far more mastery at a fraction of the cost, with similar power figures, and bullet-proof reliability thrown in too.

You might think me anti-355, but actually I joined the forum because I wanted to find out more about it. I'd read journalist reports of 'superior handling' over the 348 and it wasn't until I read more on here that I discovered these are only really apparent at triple-digit speeds I'm not likely to ever encounter. As much as it sounds nice in certain contexts, the 355 is not for me and my vote is for the Ferrari 348.

Hmmm... I'm sure I started that post wanting to make one specific point, but somehow I seem to have launched myself into a consummate advocacy of the 348. Oh well, hope you didn't mind reading it.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Aye, but there it is. The 348 Competizione *is* a 348. 4 valves per cylinder and Motronic 2.7 engine management and over 460 hp in some Le Mans configurations. Not too shabby for a non-turbo 3.4 liter engine in the 1990's.

The 348 shares engine computers in common with the fastest 355s (1995 models and Challenge models) and with the F50 supercar.

Street 348 Competiziones were delivered by Ferrari to Michelotto with 360 hp, who then bumped up the Le Mans race variants considerably.

The 355 engine puts out more hp than do the street 348s, but seems to need the maintenance of the 348 race variants.

Taken in sum side by side, I'd buy a 348 Competizione LM over a 355 whether I wanted a daily driver, racer, or drifter. If I'm going to have that much maintenance, then I at least want the 460 hp!

 

The 50HP gain of the 430 ....... was against the CS's 425hp ......... which was an 'extended' illustration of the 355 engine design (used in the CS with some bolt-on changes).

Problems and all ferraris go hand in hand .......... saying one is more or less than another is like two pigs in the mud, with one saying he is better than the other ..... because he has 'less mud' on his fur ............. when compared to 'normal reliable cars', the 348 and 355 are both filthy pigs .........

........ different people have different reasons for buying this 'kind' of car .......... the 'risk to fun' dynamic is proportional in many aspects of our lives ........ an nsx from the factory is far more 'reliable' than the 348/355 ............... we then make our choices ............


.

 

Well, the NSX is a dull-looking car and a bit of an extreme example to introduce into the 348/355 comparison... but I understand the point you're making.

Well, the fiancée is calling me for dinner and, as I must obey or risk hunger, I think I'll disappear for now.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

No question the 348 or any other car can be made more powerful with a corresponding change in maintenence and reliability.

I was illustrating how the 355 has awesome technology right out of the box ....... with corresponding change maintenence and reliability never denied ........

 

While were on the subject of 355 technology... I found one that's steam-powered!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-Ferrari-F355-SPIDER-ONLY-14907-miles_W0QQitemZ200382913038QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2ea7c09a0e&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Interesting.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

........... I did not see the 'steam' part ............. that one does not have enough miles to make sure the guides will not go bad .......... mine has new guides and awesome compression ......... so now it needs its HP mods completed ..... then I can get regular 'adrenalin fixes' ........ doctors orders ....... !!!

 

What traction control??

 

+1 ............ the 355 only has power steering ....... and active suspension control ........ both very 'simple tech' and easily reversible for the '348 macho man' ................ sheesh those 348 guys make it sound as if the 355 ....... was full of electronics ................ at least we don't have those silly little seat belt mice ..........

oh ................ the F50 supercar ......... also has 5-valves per cylinder ...... and individual throttle bodies ...... just like the 355 .................

 

I think everybody is overly obsessed with 5 valves versus 4 valves. In truth, there is a little HP gain, and more than an insignificant weight gain, and it comes with harder to cool heads.

The fact is, that if you took a F348 engine, installed all the F355 goodies (excepting the 5th valve) {This includes the forged titanium con rods, the hydraulic lifters, piston squirters(?), the 8 throttle plates, helmholtz resonators, increased the size of the right water radiator and oil cooler, <and a few other parts>} you could probably get a reliable 360 HP out of that 3.4 litre motor.

But the fact, also, is that Ferrari didn't.

There are other facts, also, like a couple of parts in the Cosworth cataloge that fit the lifter sockets in the F355, made of titanium, and coated in an amourphous diamond film. This converts the hydraulic lifter to shim under bucket design and gets rid of 20-24% of the weight of the valve train. This modification prevents the hydraulic lifters from squishing out at high RPMs loosing valve timing and adds 40 (maybe 50) HP to the F355 motor without even changing the camshafts (or anything visible from the outside)!

But the fact is that Ferrari didn't do this either.

 

+1 .......... the 348 engine could make tons with the 'right mods' ...... which would have to include ...... a much higher redline and cam timing optimised for that higher RPM ......... but like you said ...... ferrari did not do that ............

I obviously like the 5 valves ...... because I am certain they contribute to the 355's amazing sound ............. and that is reason enough ........... !!!

 

When you mention "helmholtz resonators" I assume you mean the air box after the air filters (on the 5.2). Are you saying this adds to the power/torque? Others have said this is only to eliminate intake noise at a certain r.p.m. What's your take on this?

 

The resonators add torque in the mid-range--note the air filter boxes and the tubes leading through the MAF are part of this resonating system. The velocity stacks and header tuning extend the top end of the TQ curve--adding HP.

 

You wrote "resonators" (plural). There's only one on the 5.2. We're talking about the little empty plastic box, correct? Is this box required on the 5.2 because of the combined intake path (2.7 does not have them)?