refreshed clutch, now I cant shift when stopped | FerrariChat

refreshed clutch, now I cant shift when stopped

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by billh, Sep 18, 2009.

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  1. billh

    billh Karting

    May 2, 2002
    208
    central mass
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    Bill Henderson
    #1 billh, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
    Hi all,

    I have an 86Tr with the twin disks and just had my mechanic go through the engine and trans. he replaced all the seals in the slave cylinder and I had the disks re-lined with new friction material.

    I drove the car last week and this is what I observed:

    1. it is really tough to select a gear when the car is stationary and the engine is running. I mean REALLY hard. any gear. when the engine is off, it is easy to select the gear.

    2. when the car is moving, I can select a gear especially at high way speeds. it is slick as normal. but when the car slows down it gets tougher and tougher. when I need to select first or second because I am barely moving, it is tough.

    I am aware that the pre-load needs to be set so that there is 3.5-3.8mm of interference between the pressure place clearance to the flywheel vs. the stack height of disk-intermediate plate-disk.

    If this height is set correctly, could there by anything else that could cause this bizarre hard shifting symptom?

    Thanks in advance....
     
  2. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    Lakeland FL
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    Shamile
    #2 Shamile, Sep 18, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    You should be in the TR section....more information.

    You need to read this...

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237906


    in short.....your clutch is hanging up....not allowing the gearbox to completely disengage.

    ....ask me how I know....why read my thread of course. :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice!
     
  3. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,419
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    #3 fatbillybob, Sep 18, 2009
    I bet the set-up height is off because the relined plates are off. Everyone assumes the other will do the job right and then you get screwed. I bet the compressed and relaxed thickness of the plates are out of spec. I bet they are too big. I bet you will have to pull the clutch and have the plates returned to the rebuilder and have then trim the plates to the proper thickness. If I'm right the rebuilder did not do his job and the mechanic did not check before he installed everything. I hope I'm wrong.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Tim Keseluk
    #4 2NA, Sep 18, 2009
    It is possible that your clutch master cylinder is a little tired.
     
  5. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2008
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    Jim
    #5 MiuraP400, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
    The cheapest and easiest solution is to bleed the clutch again, prey you have air still in there. After that it gets progressively harder to fix.

    Cheers Jim
     
  6. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
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    #6 FandLcars, Sep 19, 2009
    I agree with Jim, that this may be the problem. At least check this first.
     
  7. billh

    billh Karting

    May 2, 2002
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    Bill Henderson
    #7 billh, Sep 19, 2009
    Hi, thanks for your thoughts.

    I bled the clutch a few days ago. I probably did 6-7 "clutch pedal down/open bleeder/close bleeder/clutch pedal up" routines. I would think this is enough to get any bubbles out.

    do I need to do more of these cycles?

    I did notice that the brake fluid that came out was dark and cloudy compared to the new fluid in the catch cup.
     
  8. billh

    billh Karting

    May 2, 2002
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    Bill Henderson
    #8 billh, Sep 19, 2009
    Your thread is GREAT! I was plowing through it and it ends like a cliffhanger novel. I got all the way to when Clutchmasters ships you your cluctch and it comes to a screeching halt.

    so what happened? how does it run now?

    how were the intermediate spring tabs pushing back on the pressure plate? were they re-installed incorrectly? the bending force is the same after clutch job then before clutch job, right?

    My pressure plate is also worn at the ends of the fingers. this is due to a crunchy throw out bearing. but it isnt as bad as the pic I saw on the thread.
     
  9. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,712
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    Shamile
    #9 Shamile, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi

    Good point. Mine was leaking and replaced but not the problem.

    BILLH,

    You can have a situation where the internal seals leak and the fluid flows back over the seal as you push the pedal....without an external leak.


    Good point.....but I doubt it.

    If dark fluid came out, your mech. did a "slap" job. He should have bled the clutch "till the cows came home" You need to have CLEAR fluid come out.

    I use a vacuum bleeder but for the clutch, I found "old school" works better.

    Attach an airtight hose to the bleeder screw and put the open end in a bottle (starbucks frappichino bottle works well)

    To be safe, put some fluid in the bottom of the bottle....just enough to cover the hose end.

    Open the bleed screw and reservoir. Pump the clutch pedal a couple of times then fill the reservoir. Don't let the reservoir get low as the master cylinder feed hose is very close to the top.

    When you pump the clutch, use your hand as the pedal is spring loaded and without the back pressure from the pressure plate fingers, the pedal will spring to the floor.

    Do 3 pumps, add fluid and so on. You will notice the clear tube on the bleeder screw full of fluid draining out. If it's solid...no air, if you see little white bubbles....air.

    I hate to say, I'm with fat billy bob.

    BTW, who did your linings? Did you not send the FULL clutch out including the flywheel?


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  10. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
    26,419
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    #10 fatbillybob, Sep 19, 2009
    Wow! On a just serviced car I'm thinking I now have a greater chance of being right. A serviced clutch unit should have clean fluid in the lines. Someone was asleep at the switch or today you would say "he was texting".
     
  11. billh

    billh Karting

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    Bill Henderson
    #11 billh, Sep 19, 2009
    Hi Shamile,

    I will do more bleeding today to make sure it is all clean new stuff. there is alot of line between the front of the car and the very back.

    I had a local shop here in central massachusetts that do everything including p-cars. they were well versed in clutches (that is my impression). the final thickness of the disk was 9.1mm as opposed to the original at 8.2mm. The shop manual states that if the clutch is not replaced as a whole, then the spacers come into play.

    I am agreeing with everyone that I think the clutch is hanging up or not completely disengaging. I think it has to do with the spacers not being correct...

    the car is going back on Wednesday but I want to understand what is going on here...

    Bill
     
  12. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #12 Shamile, Sep 19, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    Don't lose those orig. spacers....."you vill be veely sorry"

    You don't need to replace the clutch as a whole but rebuild it as a whole. If the manual states 8.22mm and the "P"guys put 9.1mm.....start searching for a new shop.

    Those spacers are critical in a Testarossa.

    What about the intermediate plate? Did they resurface it?

    What about the pressure plate....resurfaced?

    ....and the fingers.....?

    I think you got a slap job. Take it to someone that knows Ferrari....especially the the twin plate clutch of a Testarossa.


    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  13. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    #13 f308jack, Sep 19, 2009
    It is a statement for the quality of the service rendered if the clutch fluid was old after the repair. That, and the fact that the workwas not checked, alas they would have found that the clutch is not working properly.

    Then, with a set-up like in the Tr, it is essential that all components of the clutch are within specification, including the adjustment/shimming, and total ass4embled height. If this is not done properly, the clutch may either not engage with its' specified pressure, or it may not fully dis-engage.

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you to find out that you have air in the system, but I won't hold my breath.
     
  14. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #14 fastradio, Sep 20, 2009
    Couldn't of said this better. And likely "she'll be coming apart again"...
     
  15. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #15 fastradio, Sep 20, 2009
    Yep!!! There is a reason why there's a single page in the WSM dedicated to the clutch specs...
     
  16. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
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    T. Monma
    #16 335s, Sep 20, 2009
    There is a lot of "hope " in the content of most posts....
    I'm afraid that "FatBillyBob" is the winner-again-based on my own experinces as a shop owner for 30-35 years on these things....
     
  17. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #17 Shamile, Sep 20, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    Hey what about me....don't I win? :)

    I was the first poster saying clutch hanging up.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  18. billh

    billh Karting

    May 2, 2002
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    Bill Henderson
    #18 billh, Sep 20, 2009

    You are all winners in my book! thanks for your help.
     

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