Alonso Summoned to Appear at WMSC Hearing in Paris Tomorrow

Luis

NPJ the whistle blower walks Alonso walks, Renault still can race.

Who cares any more.

 

It's still stupid of people to think, much less for Piquet Sr. to say that Alonso must have known about the whole thing.

 

Steve: Yes I do think this was much more serious than the McLaren affair.

The difference as I see it was that in the McLaren case culpability lay with the company as a whole. The material was given to an employee and it was shared by all relevant people in the company, so the company got a major penalty. In the Renault case the idea was dreamt up by Briatore/Symonds/Piquet and the 'company' had no knowledge of it. In those circumstances the biggest penalty was given to the ringleader, or at least the most senior guy directly involved, his second in command got the next biggest and Renault got a major rap over the knuckles for employing cheats. Piquet got off because without his evidence there would have been no case. Seems a pretty sensible judgement to me.

 

I dont:

- Spygate was industrial espionage and sabotage, real criminal acts
- Crashgate was only team orders, not even punishable by common law

 

When the costs of doing business are high and the rewards potentially even higher as in F1, lots of barons, crooks and other shady characters are naturally attracted.

With Dennis and the Flavster out, F1 has cleaned its system somewhat. Now all we need is for a tree to fall on Mosely and Bernie to finally decide he's too old to have a "job". Although I'm sure Bernie loves every minute of it, so that won't happen.

But there's still a chance for Max and the tree......

 

Ahh that's why Webber has been unlucky all these years



If PK Jnr never gets another F1 drive, I think that's punishment enough

 

I agree that Spygate/Liegate were real criminal acts. Although team orders may ordinarily not be punishable by law, these team orders could potentially result in both civil liability and criminal penalties for the parties involved. There are many potential causes of action arising out of these events, this story, for example, speculates that Briatore and Symonds may be extradited to Singapore to face criminal charges for race fixing (that does sound a little far-fetched):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/renault/6199553/Flavio-Briatore-and-Pat-Symonds-face-extraditon-threat-over-race-fixing-scandal.html

 

So, basically they're just sitting out for next season? Well, Renault's point of view, at least they can save 100 mil euros.

 

You are pretty much paddling your own canoe on that one, my friend.

Sabotage - definitely not, that requires something to be physically damaged.

Industrial espionage a criminal act? I think probably not, at least not in this part of the world. The crime might have been theft but not industrial espionage. And I don't recall anyone facing criminal charges, although I might have missed that.

 

Not so. Team orders involves the team arranging for one of their drivers to finish ahead of the other. In 'crashgate' half the field was effectively taken out of the race.

 

What is missing in your analegy is that there is a vast difference of running in P15/16 and running in P4. P9 does not make sense. A long shot to think that that will work.
To run wiht your 'assessment' of them assuming there will be safety cars on the race, well then unless you know exactly which lap that safety car comes out, wouldn't you have to assume that you are now running the risk of beingon the track behind the safety car and running out of fuel like so many front runners on light loads did?

Again what is missing in your analegy is that in Indy the pits get green quickly making it easy to pt a SC into a strategy, not so in F1. Etirely different way they approach SCs.

Further missing in yur analegy is that with the new Q1-3 qualifying only the Q3 runners have to start on the fuel load they carried during their qualifying run.

So, P1 through P10 would aim for maximum speed in qualifying to gain top positions and avoid traffic ahead of them. With that you can increase the gap (like Massa did before the SC) and outrun the field and gain maximum advantage for the extra pit stop. I still think that is somewhat risky on a street course but for the Q3 runners makes somewhat sense. Now the proper strategy, an the one that was employed by the rest of the Q2-Q1 runners was going in heavy and avoiding the extra stop and extra time. A strategy that makes a lot more sense from the back of the field and ESPECIALLY if you believe there will be a SC during the race (of course unless you know exactly when that SC is coming out).

Having a clip board and collecting data is a fine thing but you need to know what to do with the data. That is what makes a great strategiest.

Again, the Renault Engineers themselves during the race called the 'strategy' into question. Read the report and the comm.

 

Which would make it 'brilliant'-team order strategy (unless you get caught LOL)

 

That is why he negotiated immunity, just as Alonso negotiated immunity for the spy-gate affair to years earlier in which he also should have received a ban for life.

The unfortunate part of giving immunity.

 

amazing how people defend Alonso yet call Nelson a "spineless cheat".
Have we already forgotten that he conspired at McLaren using knowingly stolen data to further his own interest?

Nelson is done. He was done when he did not perform. Rarely do you get a second chance after pee-poor performance like he has given.

This whole scandal is about pressure to perform.

Briatore got pressure from Renault Management.
Symonds got pressure from Briatore
Nelson got pressure from Symonds and Briatore (as teamboss and manager)

Just don't forget what 'spineless cheat' Alonso is and don't forget that when/if he will be driving a Ferrari next year. Will you be looking at him also differently?

 

Where in the world do you come up with the idea that HE (Piquet) suggested that? What is next, the Vatican called him and told him to do it for Flavio?

Hope you feel the same about the Spaniard.

 

Exactly who gives a royal rat's pitout, IMO it's just expensive, ego trip entertainment and NOT a proper sport anymore (but then hasn't it always been like it is now?) - I like Damon Hill's comments...

Although he is not happy with Renault's punishment, Hill admits it hardly came as a surprise.

"I'm not surprised they've let Renault off," Hill told The Times. "It's a crying shame for the sport."

Many pundits have raised concerns about the way the FIA dishes out penalties after McLaren were handed a record $100 million fine for their role in the Spygate case.

Former World Champion Hill believes it is all part of Bernie's Game.

"You have to put this in the context of inconsistencies in the way in which the FIA has treated breaches of the regulations over the years and, knowing what we know, we cannot dissociate this from the power play going on behind the scenes for control of Formula One," Hill said.

"Formula One has to ask itself, is it just a very expensive form of entertainment or a proper sport? There is a whole book on what's wrong with Formula One. It's called Bernie's Game and the history of this episode is typical."

 

NO, THEY RACE NEXT YEAR - any infractions and they CAN be banned or just get their hands slapped again

Carol

 

Wrong again you are, sorry.
The car was very competitive all weekend long. They had the unfortunate fuel pump going in qualifying. Freak break down but he was very competitive.

He did not question it. That is the whole point. We know, because he said himself so (why dosn't anybody that comment here take the time to read the actual report?).
The point is that what he did not do is what raises the question that he must have known otherwise he would have very much raised that question.

You can call Sen and Jr what you want. They are responsible for bringing light to a situation that is utterly unacceptable in racing. It is dangerous and reckless. For that Jr will pay the ultimate price.
Their actions may have avoided Flavio from trying this BS again and then, maybe someone would have been killed. They did the right thing. I wish Jr had the guts to tape the converstion with Symonds and not race that weekend and hang Flavio an Symonds right then and there. On the grid!

 

great post Martin, as are all of yours on here

Carol

 

Wrong also Andreas.

Reckless endangerment of the public, fellow drivers, causing an unsafe condition. There is massive amount of criminal law that has been broken here. Not even speakng of civil law where Ferrari and other teams can now come in and sue for damages since their finish positions have been compromised and putting a value on WDC title etc in terms of advertising Dollars.

I doubt it will go that far but the opportunity is there and would not be too hard to prove.

One could argue that the crashgate is a lot more severe than th spygate. There only Ferrari's intellectual property was a victim. In crashgate 20 other drivers were endangered.

 

I actually liked Alonso and felt sympathy for him when he lost his wheel but no one is telling me that Alonso didn't know about nelsinho crashing deliberately so that Alonso could benefit. He isn't retarded. FIA aren't out to get him so he walks free.

I think that Alonso is one of the best in the field but I never want to see him at Ferrari. I liked him (before the crash gate, after the mclaren spy gate) for a little while. Ferrari would be incredibly stupid to hire him for a drive in 2011, even more stupid if they hire him for 2010. But it won't surprise me if they do.

RE my 'idea' that Piquet suggested it...

He was desperate for a drive for the next season, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he told Flavio if he should have a crash if he can have a drive the next season. Flavio/Symonds said that Piquet approached him...

 

The decision to fix this race did not come from Renault management. It was a decision that was made by Flavio who saw his laurels swimming away with the poor performance of the team in 08. When they finally had a car that ran good and competitively during the Singapore practice and the first Qual, then only to have something as rediculous as a fuel pump go bad, he made a decision to help himself out a little.
I believe Pat is a long time and outstanding engineer and was also under pressure for months by Briatore to perform. He greed to the BS that Favio dreamed up. Another person under enourmous pressure was Nelson Jr. He came to a team that was supposed to be running up front and found himself in the back of the field. Crashing and over-eagerly driving making mistakes. (I am not defending his driving style here, I think he is not F1 material, never the less I understand the mindset he was under). He wanted that contract renewed. Since his manager is also his teamboss you know that Flavio did not solicit other teams to see if they wanted to have Nelson. He waited and waited and Nelson by late September had the feeling he may not have a ride in 09. Then comes your manager and team boss along with the chief engineer and ask you to deliberately crash.

Why did they not ask Aloonso to crash? Simple he is a 2-time champ and will find his 09 ride even in December. He would have told them to go and fly kite. The difference in maturity and security of a job.

True character is shown when you are at your weakest and make couragous decisions that may immediately affect your life adversly. Rarely do any of us have to make those decisions. If you have a ounce of dignity look into yourself and put yourself into the shoes of this kid. Ask yourself if you would not have done the same thing.
Honestly, going first, yes I think at that age I would have done the same thing.

 

I agree with you that Alonso is a phenomenal talent.
As a person he has shown too often that he has rather 'questionable' morals.

If you read through the 59 pages you will see that it was not Nelson that approached them but that he was called into a meeting the day before the race and again on race day. At the meeting present was Flavio and Symonds and nobody else.

Let make this clear. Alonso did not sit in any of those meetings and was not directly involved.
Based on his reaction, or better his non-reaction, to the fuel strategy he was about to set out on, he highly likely must have known. Coupled with his checkered past at McLaren I say he did know. So did Nelson Sen and so did others. Again, many questioned then the fuel strategy, many questioned then the crash all within the Renault organization, let alone outside of Renault. It is all in the documents.

It is rather unfair to Nelson Sen to call him names for raising a stink about it and not giving his credit for bringing this to light. In fact we should be praising him for what he did and that he had the courage to approach Whiting and effectively tell the sporting director his son was involved in a race fixing incident a month earlier.

In this whole thing, he, Nelson Piquet Sen is the one person that should be congratulated for his actions!

 

damn...if I copy paste all of my posts on this I can get a book deal

 

the way i look at it, this thing has definitely affected Alonso on the long run. Whose he gonna sign next? For some reason, i think the Scuderia will definitely take him in.