No 911 = Porsche is just another sports vehicles maker.
Sure, but given that the Cayman is "handicapped" (or maybe "kneecapped") at the factory, you would expect that. If the Cayman and 997 had equal power, rubber, etc., I suspect the Cayman would win consistently. I remember the square headlight fiasco. My brother had one of those Wranglers. The Wrangler is certainly a halo car, but it isn't fundamentally flawed for what it does. I.e., if you want to go rock bashing, it is perfect for that. Now, if the original Jeep had had three wheels and you had to be really skilled to keep it from tipping over and killing you, then it would be situtation like we have with the "ass-engined Nazi slot car", to use PJ O'Rourke's label. Lol
I don't disagree fundamentally, but the Cayenne now makes up about 50% of Porsche sales, at least in the US and they are certainly not cheap. So somebody aspires to own them. It would be interesting to see stats on how many Boxster owners have actually traded up for a 911 but I don't see that attitude from Cayman owners either locally or on Porsche forums. The model seems to have its own group of fans. Some have actually traded down from 911's. If I sell mine, it won't be for a 911. The Cayman is an inherently better design even though Porsche will make sure it is always underpowered compared to 911's. Dave
I realize folks love the cayman handling, I had a boxster s and it was a fantastic handling car too. but underpowered. torque/ft cayman 201 vs 911tt 460. its not even close
I owned a Cayman S for 2 years. Handling and balance were spectacular, but it is gone because it needed more grunt. I have been test driving 911's for years, hoping one would appeal to me--they never have (air cooled, water cooled, 2's and 4's, turbos). I think Porsche should keep the 911. Some people like the feel of having the engine in the "way back" but I think it is absurd that Porsche handicaps the Cayman and Boxster by not giving them more power.
If Porsche put a 911S engine in a cayman for the same price as a 997 S I highly doubt anyone would buy it over the 911. The 911 just has a better look (all subjective) and the shape it timeless. I too had a Boxster S and it is a far superior handling machine, but it just doesn't have the same feel as a 911. It reminds me of test driving a Lotus Elise vs Lotus Esprit V8. The elise could be driven by my wife close to 100% where as the Esprit took some getting used to. I bought a Esprit V8...for the same price as an elise. Maybe it is the quirks in a car that we all like. Otherwise we would all go buy a nissan gtr....it is fast and makes the driver look good.....but every article claims it to be a boring drive. I have a 996 C4S currently...it is my 5th porsche I've had 2 boxsters and 3 911's. The boxsters are great cars but they aren't as "serious." Just my 2 cents
I take issue with both of your statements. We'll likely never know about the absolute correctness of the first one, but I know multiple Cayman S owners who own other Porsche products (911 GT3, 911S/4, Turbo), and like them all, but for different reasons. This includes 2 who traded track driven 911 GT3's for track driven Cayman S's. Three of these folks have said they are buyers for a Cayman S with more power. Personally, I don't give a rat's hind end about the "iconic" status of the 911 in terms of a purchase, though I completely respect it. My Cayman S stickered in the low 70's, 911S's sticker in the low 90's, and I would buy an "uber-Cayman" in a heart beat. So I think there is clearly a market. And I think you are confusing serious and iconic. Or at least you need to define your terms--what do you mean by "serious"? I'm not trying to start of flame war here--the 911 is an amazing car with an amazing history from a company with real racing cred. But, I know some (other) 911 owners who refuse to evaluate the Boxster/Cayman on a level playing field. I'm not saying you are one of those folks, nor that your .02 is worth any more or any less than my .02.
Of course, if you want something really powerfully (and scarily) expensive, you could take your Cayman to RUF...but then I will say that it is just STILL not a real 911. This happened back in the day with the 916 specials built on a 914/6 at great cost.
Sir, what you are describing is the difference between a sports car and a GT car. I put a lot of seat time in both a Cayman and 997 before buying the Cayman, and you are right. The 997 rides a lot better than the Cayman. In fact, it feels like a C55/E55. But a 997 (or a 993) is NOT like the 911s of yore. Nope, a 997 is one hellva GT. The Cayman, on the hand, is busy. When you drive down a bumpy road, you feel the bumps. Do not try to finger steer a Cayman, both hands on the wheel is the way to go. What's the main cause of this difference? Simple, weight. A Cayman weighs right at 3,000 pounds. I believe a 997 is about 500 pounds more. This may not seem like much, but it does make a significant difference. Therein lies the rub. Elsewhere on this board, people are saying that sports cars are dead. Well, if you add air bags and everything else DOT requires today to an old 911, guess what? Yep, you just lost your sports car. This is why I say it is time for the 997 to go. It is no longer a sports car. It is a great GT, but if you want a sports car, may I suggest a 1973 911S? Dale
Respectfully, Dale - back in the day - the very very early 911 cars were almost always termed "GT cars" in the Auto Mags of the day, and IIRC, even in the rare print ads that Porsche took out at the time. Because of the secondary seats, wind up windows, and relatively nice interior, I guess... Many 356 people felt that the 911 had just become too powerful, too big, too heavy. And my first one was just around 2300 lbs.
But that is exactly the rub. I don't CARE if it is "not a real 911"--to me, the 911 is just another sports car. My issue with the position that some take in these discussions is that, for them, the 911 occupies some royal position, and those who don't aspire to it, lust after it, salivate when seeing it, etc. are somehow not worthy.
Why get rid of GTs just because they are not sports cars (by your definition)? In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?" Besides my 911's and Boxter, I have had three Cayennes, all Turbos, and I loved them. They may be SUVs (heaven forbid), but they have some of the feel of other Porsches, all of the quality, and even some of the quirks. I don't have one now, but I look forward to one in the next generation, due in a year or so. And they didn't fool me into thinking they were sports cars. For sports cars, pure sports cars, I have had an Elise and a Challenge Stradale. If "light" is a prerequisite for "sport" I had two examples there, didn't I.
You guys are missing my point. A 997 is more like a Maranello than an old school 911. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.) Clearly, the 997 (and whatever replaces it) is a great car and Porsche sells a bunch of em. But it is a GT, not a sport car because it weighs too much. Hell, even a Cayman weighs too much, but whatcha gonna do when the DOT comes for you? To prove my point, scoot on down to your Porsche pusherman and con him into letting you get behind the wheel of a GT3. Now, that's a sports car. My bone to pick with Porsche is that the Cayman is a better platform than the 997. So come on Porsche, give us a Cayman-GT3. Dale
So why 'kill the 911' if the GT3 version is still 'a sports car'? Porsche can still make that platform boogie....so why not keep doing it? Is it holding the Cayman back? Possibly. But a GT3 or a GT3RS is always there if you think the Cayman S isn't enough.
The boxster, cayman and cayenne only exist for the reason of keeping the 911 alive and of course the profits are great too.
This sums it up. And 500 lbs IS a lot on any performance-oriented car. I realize the 911/997 is the icon, but I have an issue with Porsche keeping the better sports car platform down a rung in performance strictly for marketing reasons. That's always bothered me about all the Boxster bashing as well. I've driven the base Boxster and the S, and really all they lack is 997-levels of power. With the Cayman, I think Porsche has the basis for a better sports car than the 997, and they are deliberately not doing their best. Exactly.
lol! agreed james. some people seem to forget that the 911 platfom is the winingest sportcar in racing history so i guess there is an element of royalty huh? it could be easily argued that the 911 is the greatest sportscar in history. and btw, the 930 is among the most kick azz production sportscars in history...along w/ the 427 sc cobra! scotty? your thoughts? pcb
I figured 3 years ago a company would have developed a turbo or SC kit for the Cayman that was affordable and popular (kind of how the CompTech kits became popular and common for the NSX crowd). At ~$10k, I'm surprised the TPC turbo kit hasn't caught on more. Not enough marketing, or just terrible timing coinciding with the world economy going splat?
Or you could buy a 997 (like I did), take it apart (like I did) rebuild the chasis in titanium, & magnesium, take all the crap out of the car like traction controls (like I did), use lighter weight body parts (like I did) change parts of the interior (like I did), rework the suspension, the engine, the fly wheel, the exhaust (like I did), and then put it all back together and the supercharge it (like I did), Ask me anything except what it costs (my wife read this forum sometimes)
