Thanks for all the info guys! Dr Haas, I would like to make a side-note to your comments and findings: It may well be that for your application the recycled oil with the viscosity you mention works well, but you basically deny yourself an important part of the cars' capabilities, and limit its' use by your choice of lubricant. You probably have 100% control over the drivers of the cars. Just for argument's sake, I'd compare it with putting S-rated tyres on a car that is caspable of 300km/h. Why would you put that kind of limitations on the use of a Ferrari and a Lamborghini? Mitch, I agree with much you write, but why would a track-day consume the additive package? And precisely which additives would have been consumed? I don't think that there are too many consequences for a healthy Ferrari engine used on a track-day, with the restriction that the temperatures don't exceed the limits. That's not an extra condition, it applies to all use of the car.
Yes, but a 355 (and I think all newer ferraris)has a thermostatically controlled water/oil heat exchanger to keep the oil at the correct temperature, older cars do not. I now on my QV with the old radiator of a hot day (95F ish) just driving up the highway at 65mph the water temps would be 190F ish and the oil temp in the 220-230F ish range. One day, right before I upgraded the cooling system, after sitting in traffic before getting on the highway I saw 250+ on the oil temp and the oil pressure dropped to 10psi ish before I got to a place I could pull over and wait an hour for everything to cool drop. Luckily I was running the factory recommended 50 weight oil (castrol 5-50 synthetic), 30W would have been a disastrer. IMO running a thin oil greatly increases risk of a problem with no mitigating up side or even up side potential. Claims I read about "peppier" and such get a resound "BS!".....I've dynoed many engine with many different oils over the years and there just ain't more power to be had. I could be sold that a slight improvement in fuel milage could be measured on a car that spent most of its time below operating temperature, but out on the highway at operating temp a measured improvement is unlikely.
Yes. As long as the car isn't actually driven most anything will do for rolling it around the garage.....30 year old bald tires will work out just fine.....as long as it isn't driven. Honestly I can't believe this oil nonsense continues to come up….or that anybody would play oil test on a ferrari engine.
Why would you not use a 10w50 oil as recommended by the Ferrari factory. While not using the brand as recommended by the factory, I would certainly use the viscosity and grade as recommend by the engineers that designed the engine.
The issue some struggle with is that 20 years ago, the thought that higher viscosity oil was better. Today, with more engineering studies, that isn't true. In addition, today's engines are built to closer tolerances and lower viscosity oil is needed to get oil into places that higher viscosity oil doesn't flow as well. Just be aware of your driving conditions. If you are going to track the car, be sure and use the appropriate oil viscosity. If the car is a weekend driver and the weather can be a little chilly, then a 5-30 or 5-40 viscosity may be just fine and possibly better than a 10-50.
This is true, but take into account that the opposite is also true: older engines were built with bigger tolerances, and the thicker oil, apart from lubricating, also performs a mechanical part, i.e. it fills a gap and mechanically cusshions relative movements of parts , and depending on the tolerances this effect cannot be reached with a thinner oil.
There is some truth to that but improvement in oils is a factor. For instance, Ferrari changed the recommended oil in 328's from 15-50 to 10-40 during production with no change in the motors. Plus today's 40 weights hold up just as well or better at high temps than yesterday's 50 weights according to test data I've seen. But I would stick with factory recommendations on any car that is less than 10 years old. Dave Dave
Ferrari has been pretty consistent since the introduction of the 355 (or at least late model 355s) with recommending synthetic 5W-40 or 0W-40 Shell UltraHelix for V8 and V12 engines through the 612 and Scuderia. Only the Enzo and 599 differ, with Ferrari recommending 10W-60 synthetic. I have not been happy with the foaming of the Shell U-H or Quaker State Q equivalent, so have switched to Valvoline synthetic 5W-40, which does not foam. It seems any good 5W-40 or 0W-40 synthetic should be adequate. Afraid I am just not brave enough to change at this late date. 0W-30 is probably adequate for nearly all street use, but I will stick with the recommended viscosities on the newer cars. Ferrari is amazingly loyal to F1 sponsors, hence the Shell recommendation and earlier AGIP recommendation. (They even fitted Ferraris with all Goodyear tires when Goodyear was an F1 sponsor.)Not sure they have always been the best oil out there, but are adequate for the job. Mobil 1 comes standard in Corvettes, Porsches, and Mercedes. Guess that should say something. Taz Terry Phillips
A day at the track, or 5-10 days of heavy back road driving--far beyond legal velocities, consumes the anti-wear parts of the additive package. As far as I know, the anti-foam, detergents, dispersants, acid-neutralizers parts of the package are unaffected. {Note: the primary difference between race oil and motor oil is the (nearly) lack of detergents and dispersants; which in motor oil occupy 2%-ish of the volume. Race oil is great for your engine on track days, it is very bad for your engine sitting in the garage.} Why? First, ZDDP (a primary anti-wear agent) works by laying down a molecular film (adsorb) on the surface of the bearings and highly stressed surfaces. When a heavy load comes by and almost breaks the film strength of the oil, the molecular film sacrifices itself (its softer than the metals) and some of the molecules get torn into smaller pieces in the process. With the removal of the film, more ZDDP molecules adsorb onto the surface of the engine waiting for their chance to be sacrificed. The dispersants in the oil keep the torn molecules in solution. Secondly, a long good high RPM high oil temp run puts a good deal of the soluable crud in the engine into solution. Dropping this fluid for a clean batch is a good idea. Now, once you engine is as clean as mine (I have pictures) inside, you don't have any crud inside the engine, but the primary anti-wear chemical is still significantly lessened. Third, every time I am driving home from a good long run at the track, the oil pressure is 3-5 PSI lower (it is still over 75 PSI) but it is noticible lower. I tried changing the filter once and the oil pressure stayed lower. Changing the oil brought it back to where it should have been (or was before). Nore does a week sitting in the garage bring the oil back to where it was pressure wise. Thus something has changed in the oil in a way that does not come back if you just ignore it. I strongly suspect that this is the viscosity improvers getting sheared to death at the track. I have no evidence (that it is the VIIs) except the oil pressure (and temp) gauges.
eulk- Who knows what oil or tires Ferrari recommends besides those with an OM in their hands? The racing mentality still drives Ferrari. Taz Terry Phillips
I know what oil and tires Ferrari recommend by looking at the plates on the car, looking in the owner's manual, looking on line or contacting Ferrari. What does that have to do with my belief that Ferrari enters into contracts with suppliers? It's no surprise that they were "loyal" to AGIP for some time. AGIP is part of the Fiat Group as is Ferrari. "The racing mentality still drives Ferrari." Well I think that's obvious. They build race cars on the highest level and high performance street cars which often end up utilizing the F1 technology.
Is that really true, about older engines being built "looser"? I am not so sure. It is one of those things that sounds likely but I am not convinced there is any truth to it. Could you cite some numbers to show this is correct? Specifically, what clearances were looser on an engine from, say, 1985 vs one from 2005? Are we talking ring gaps? What were they on a 308 and what were they on a 360? I am not trying to put you or anyone on the spot, but there are tons of 'conventional wisdom' statements made about this subject, and I think many of them are false. I work with some metalworking machinery from the 70's and 80's and it is just as accurate as stuff made today. I don't think there were any reasons that they could not hold as good tolerances in 1985 vs 2005... materials have advanced, sure, but I'm wondering if we aren't just believing what sounds like it's plausible vs. actual fact? Just curious.
Up until SM oils ('08) this was basicaly true. The drop in zinc an phosporous (main atoms in ZDDP) from 100-PPM to 800-PPM has shown terrible effects on old flat tappet engines (1960's hot rods). But Ferrari uses a somewhat similar cam actuation system--the tappet is falt and has a wiping action from the cam shaft. Luckily the light and multiple valves with reasonable spring pressures stay away from the hot rodder's problems (that higher levels of ZDDP fixes). You shold understant that a 10W-40 oil has a base stock with a stronger film strength than a 5W-40 or 0W-40 oil, even though all these oils have an operating viscosity of 12-15 centiStokes. The stronger base stock shows up in high RPM high load applications in the HTHS number of the oil. For example the Redline oil:: {First number, cold viscosity cSt; second number operating viscosity cSt; third number HTHS viscosity cP} 00W-30 57 10.9 3.2 05W-30 62 10.6 3.8 10W-30 70 10.7 3.8 00W-40 81 15.1 4.0 05W-40 94 15.1 4.6 10W-40 93 14.6 4.7 Shell U-H 05W-40 76 13.8 4.2 If you are in a situation where the HTHS number is going to make the difference between engine wear and not, we see that 10W-40 RedLine is better than 5W-40 and 0W-40 at both operating viscosity and HTHS viscosity; It also pumps (ever so slightly) better than it compatriots. This is the lack of viscosity improvers (10W-40 has essentially none). If you are in a situation where HTHS is not going to make the difference, then 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil is superior to both. Great cold viscosity (62 or 70 cSt), perfect operating viscosity (10.6 cSt) and an HTHS (3.8 cP) goot enough for up to 285dF temperatures (compared to -40 weight oils which are good up to 305dF--redline on th eoil temp gauge). As noted above, 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils are even better due to the sronger base stock (compared to 0W-30 oils). These give your engine better cold pumpability (than 10W-40 Shell UH), perfectly adequate operating viscisity, and almost as good an HTHS number as Shell UH (4.2). As long as your oil temp stays below 295dF these (redline) oils are just as good if not better than the Shell UH oils. {295 happens to be where the 3.8 HTHS number of 10W-30 oil has the same HTHS viscosity as Shell UH has at 305dF.} The big caveat being, "if you engine consumes oil with the -30 weights but does not consume the -40 weights go back to the -40 weights." A second caveat is that if you are in a situation where your oil temp is above 285dF, and will not back down when this happens, you should consider an oil with an even higher HTHS number (redline 10W-40 oils and 15W-50 oils have these kinds of high HTHS numbers, but a lot of thicker oils do also). Most quality oils will give you these units of data if you search for them. Choose wisely.
It is well known the Shell stuff foams a lot. Once my 430 was out of warranty, I asked the dealer to use Mobil 1 the next oil change. Turns out they had been using it all along. They said Shell foams too much. However, they get Mobil 1 5-40 from Merecedes and it is pricey. They charge about $10/qt. I just got a lift and may start doing my own changes. I'll see if I can source the 5-40. BTW, my car with 16K on it including about 1K on the track has never used any oil or had any motor related issues of any sort. Dave
I don't know if this helps or hinders. It came from a friend who works at Mobil. To change units from mass% to PPM move 4 decimal places- 1000PPM=0.1% Tom B Image Unavailable, Please Login
I can't cite numbers but a discussion with a BP Amoco engineer on a plane ride one time confirmed the trend that lower viscosty oil protected modern engine parts as well as higher viscosity oil and the lower viscosity oil protected much better during cold starts and in cold weather. The main issue with engines today is corrosion from moisture due to insufficient run time to completely warm the engine. The less than 10 mile drives are just engine killers in this respect. I cannot comment if the higher viscosity oil produces a better oil film for the metal parts to ride on in a "looser" engine than a "tighter" engine. Perhaps someone else can.
New oil out: Castrol Edge (Synthetic) and advertized to be 5x better than Mobil 1! "Think with your dipstick Jimmy!!"
I have no idea. Just saw the ad with some weird guy running around with a dipstick saying "think with your dipstick Jimmy". Weird but caught my attention.
Stuff is expensive. Best I have seen is ~$47 for six quarts or ~$90 for 12. http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store/page95.html#461 About the same for Valvoline 5W-40 fully synthetic. http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV966-SynPower-Motor-Bottles/dp/B000GAP428 Taz Terry Phillips
I just swapped my carb'd 308 to Total (formerly Elf) quartz racing synthetic 10w-50 and am completely satisfied. Great zinc content and it is a pure PAO base synthetic, not group III. Easily available in the US now as well.
