Hello All, bDelp I do agree with you that it is the individuals willing to pay more for an item that will influence the price and no business person is going to sell for MSRP when they could get more. But, I thought that Ferrari N.A and Spa have for years controlled the pricing, dealers cannot sell for over MSRP when the car is new. As a pre-owned they are free to charge whatever they want. How it seems dealers get around this is they say well if you want a new 458 then you need to buy this or these cars too. Solving the problem of too much inventory. Dealers also require the right to resell your car within a certain time period if you decide you want to sell it. You of course don't have to follow this but chances of you getting the next new Ferrari from that dealer is slim. And as Ferrari Spa is controlling the territories you are stuck buying from a dealer that is locale to you and yes some of us have plenty of other addresses. But the dealer is in the driver's seat and makes the rules which are not constituent. I don't mind free markets and like you I like them. What I don't like is the way Ferrari dealers play. This to me is not free market. The idea that the dealer gets to dictate what you have to do to get the car you want so the dealer can move inventory or control the pre-owned market is not free market practices. And Ferrari N.A and Spa must realize what is happening. I would rather see no territory restrictions and allow buyers to buy from whom ever they want. Economics will play a role in the purchasing of new 458s but may be not to the level we see in other brands or products. One dealer I discussed this topic with said and this is before we even knew what the car was going to be called said to me that people that owned newer F430s would be the first ones to receive the 458 and then further down the F430 owner list and that if you do not own a F430 then you could not get the 458. Now all this was before the economy went south and values of pre-owned F430s were stronger. So here is the bigger question (I think) are people going to sell their F430s at a much lower price than they bought them at for a 458? Also as more sell their F430s what does that do to the resale value of F430s? At what point do current owners of F430s keep their cars vs buying another? The reality is this Ferrari is going to import a certain number of 458s and there are plenty of buyers. There are more buyers than there will be cars. And in the end it doesn't matter whether we agree, disagree, like and or dislike the way it is. If you want a 458 it is going to be down to either how bad you want it now or whether you are fortunate to be in the good graces of your dealer or may be even both. bDelp keep it coming I like your posts and I am curious to read what your thoughts are on a few of my thoughts / questions. Cheers, James
"What I don't like is the way Ferrari dealers play. This to me is not free market." James, how would you like them to play? I think they're just leveraging their scarce product. I don't feel that Ferrari dealers need to play "fair," I don't even know what "fair" is. I'd expect the dealers to allocate new cars in a way that maximizes whatever it is they want - profits, rich friends, whatever. On the other hand, when it comes to luxury goods, I'm only going to do business with people I like. If I feel that my past business hasn't been recognized or appreciated by my dealer, then I won't do business with him. This may sound harsh, but I don't think Ferrari cares all that much about even pretty good customers, and it would be irrational for those customers to care too much, to pout around hoping for a pat on the head and a 458 to make things all better. People have complained for a long time on fchat about not being able to get this or that car; I've never felt that sorry for them. It's a game with very, very, very simple rules: spend money, get stuff. I had a very good relationship with our prior dealer; they treated me well, invited me to events, allocated cars to me, and I bought a lot of cars. They were track people, it was all great! I would have told anyone who complained about his dealer to call my folks. Now, I don't know our new dealer, have no relationship at all with them at all, and if any reaching out is to be done it will have to be done by them. But I suspect I'm only a couple Maseratis and a 612 away from having my portrait hanging in the showroom. You can't take any of the Ferrari allocation game personally. There's no "fair" as far as I'm concerned. You play, or you don't. For a while I was treated very well, then a new dealer came aloing and I was forgotten. Poor me! First rule of Ferrari ownership: shut up. Life is good.
Problem is most dealers are only allocated 10-30 new cars a year. You cannot run a business with so little inventory. They are also bound to the MSRP for the new cars. This is really a hardship. So what do they do? They rebuy "new" cars from selective clients and resell them for a significant up charge (as a used car) and make much more on those resales than on the new cars. In addition, it increases their sales inventory tremendously. These dealers have relationships with a number of clients that allow this to happen. How is it that you can walk into a South Florida dealer and find several 200-800 mile cars on the floor? Who waits for a Ferrari, uses it for 200-800 miles and then sells it back to a dealer? Do I sense so monkey business afoot? I think that this isn't the SOP at all dealerships but I think it happens at too many of them You might say that there isn't enough new product around (alotment) to really keep a dealership solvent. Just my .02. I have bought 10 cars in the past 12 years and the last 5 I have purchased from private parties. I hate the dance around at the dealerships and fortunately I have the ability to do this so as not to be involved with the "delaer waltz thru OZ".
Any Brand that typically has their own people-dealers, mgr reps, factory-- treating good (somewhat good) customers is a dismissive way is simply poor business. I think the guys on this site especially, understand how this works. Would you expect this kind of foolishness from the clerks or concierges when checking into the Peninsula, or looking at a watch at Cartier. You don't because part of the Brand is having a great experience. So is Ferrari. You have to ask yourself: why would these dealers treat their own business this way?
"why would these dealers treat their own business this way?" Overwhelming demand means that the unhappy client who storms off, vowing to take his business elsewhere, is immediately replaced. That sort of market certainly could have made it easy to become arrogant, if indeed that's what's happened in some corners over the many boom years. Remember, too, my sense is that a lot of owners here - maybe most? - are very happy with their dealers.
My two cents. The F430 prices will depreciate, but not as much as some might think. In my neighborhood, a lot of the F 430 buyers were not true Ferrari guys (guys that really enjoy driving the car), but were rather, guys that liked it because they saw that they could drive it for a year and flip out of it for what they paid for it. They are traders at heart and saw it as a great trade. The credit bubble created this condition, and increased demand dramatically. Many of these buyers had never owned a ferrari before and did not see themselves losing money on the vehicle. Now the car is sitting in their garage and they have taken a big hit on it that they never expected to take. These buyers are not coming out of pocket 125K to step up to the 458 and will sit with the 430 for quite some time. These are people that are all about the Benjamins and their ego will prevent them from selling the 430 because they don't want to realize the loss. They would rather have it sit in the garage, show it to friends, and tell them that they are on the list for the 458. This upgrade cycle will not be anything like the 360 to 430 cycle. In addition to these "traders", there are people like myself who don't view the new car as being worth an out of pocket investment of $125k for a minor improvement in lap times. A scuderia is just as fast as this car. I would rather take the money and buy a used lotus exige cup car and run around the track with a 430 and the lotus - lots more fun then having just a 458. Bottom line - the market for 430s is stable now and the majority of people that are selling their 430 for a 458 have done so. That is what you saw going on this summer - people with financial problems and people getting their money out of the 430 in prep for the 458. If you look at the number of cars for sale on the Ferrari approved site, the numbers have been going down recently. However, with the 430 being the largest selling Ferarri of all time, there is still plenty of supply and prices will continue a normal depreciation, but the big slide is over. There is just a larger number of people that are going to hold on to their 430s then people realize, thereby causing the market to depreciate at a slower rate then many expect. Many will be surprised how well the 430 prices hold up in the spring - the dealers will still have no new product to sell, except for the California and that car is aimed at new ferrari customers, not people selling a 430. Go enjoy your 430, put miles on it, and spend the upgrade money on a dedicated track car! Two cars are better then one, especially when you let a friend experience a drive on the track in a ferrari. They never buy a porsche again!
WHC, I do not disagree with you. If you remember towards the end of my post I say "The reality is this, Ferrari is going to import a certain number of 458s and there are plenty of buyers. There are more buyers than there will be cars. And in the end it doesn't matter whether we agree, disagree, like and or dislike the way it is. If you want a 458 it is going to be down to either how bad you want it now or whether you are fortunate to be in the good graces of your dealer or may be even both." Please understand I am not whining or complaining. I completely understand the way it is and you can join the dance or not. When demand so far exceeds supply you can act as you wish. Personally I would not want to be a Ferrari sales person. All day long you are going to get calls about products you don't have enough of and you have little control over how much you are going to get. And the products you have to sell are not in as high demand. As I said before my questions are, if in the current economy where supply might exceed demand (the F430 market) what then? What do any of you that currently own a F430 model feel about the F430 market? Is it still strong? Are prices stable? Do you feel there are enough new buyers for the number of pre-owned F430s? When does the price delta between the trade in F430 and the new 458 make sales slower? If ever? These questions of course are very personal and is on a case by case basis. As someone said previously, if the number of people who did purchase in the past during the F430 model run has decreased and money is tight be it valuation on property or incomes not rising or whatever it might be does this impact sales or are sales of the 458 unaffected? Thanks, James
Racer XF599 We are both right. I said that Ferrari was also involved in this mix and is not totally innocent. They try to control the market. They are influencing the market for their own purpose. It is in fact NOT a free market. It's a quasi Free market because we, as consumers, do have a voice but Ferrari has the ability to make adjustments in supply in a non-uniform manner throughout the dealer network. We can only say "no" or negotiate within it. There are all sorts of ways they can influence the market price aside from MSRP. They can adjust allocations, they can force options, they can require additional warranty charges, and of course they can threaten delays. But, should we really blame the dealers for this? Now, part of this influence is bad and part is good. The bad part is longer waits, higher prices, etc. The good part is that it tends to prop up resale values of used cars. But, we should remember the "S" in MSRP is just that.. a suggestion. We are the ones who are willing and able to pay for it what is being sold. As long as we pay, they will continue. As long as they build products we want, they will try to get as much for it as possible. That may sound really bad but it you and I were running the company, we would do the exact same thing for ourselves and our investors.
Hello, I follow often but post rarely. I have been of the opinion that Ferrari pretty much controls EVERYTHING about the market. Look at their dealer network over the last 15 years. Many longtime stores closed to be replaced by factory owned/operated ones. I suspect the reason that other then the Wynn store in Vegas (the only independent I know of opening in 15+years) there are maybe 10 Ferrari dealerships in the US that are not factory owned. The ones that have remained were either longtime solid dealers or had some kind of sweetheart deal from the factory. From about '95 on up they wanted to own and operate every store in the US thus giving them total control. Maybe I am wrong. I am in St.Louis and know that we could support a store here but something to do with Missouri franchising laws prohibits manufactures from owning their own dealerships. I don't know which other states have similar laws but that is why St.Louis got the only "Ferrari Service" (no sales) facility, as far as I know ANYWHERE in the world. Sorry to ramble, but the long and short of it is that it really doesn't matter which dealer you do business with, Ferrari Spa is and has been pulling all the strings for many years.
I am pretty certain that every Ferrari authorized dealer in California and Florida is a factory store, Houston I think now is as well. Shelton was the last "independent" hold out that I can think of in Florida, which I think the factory assumed control of a couple years back. I could be incorrect, but am pretty sure.
Boardwalk Auto Group recently announced its purchase of Ferrari of San Francisco. Penske, for one, owns dealerships such as Ferrari of Central New Jersey, among others. Shelton (old name) in Lauderdale was owned by the FoLI guys last time I checked. The Newport Beach and San Diego dealers are not factory owned, and those folks own Ferrari of Washington as well. I am not aware of any factory owned dealers in the US.
"Who is the owner of Ferrari of Long Island and Ferrari of Washington?" I believe the dealer principals for FoLI and FoW are members of the Hayim and Story families, respectively. I'd imagine there are other investors.
Service only centers are quite common in Europe. They used to be here in the US also but when FNA was created they were done away with.
Ferrari of Washington was owned by Allie Ash and he sold to Bill Story. They (Ferrari Washington) told me they own another dealership in California as well.
