whats my responsibility?

What event was that?
Good God thats one of the worst things to have happen ...and race control would have had our hides too for allowing that to happen! At which point did he figure out he was doing a very bad thing?

 

No! you would stay in your car. Wait to get waved on track by a CW and then enter the pits and "see why". You never get out on track unless on fire or instructed by CW.

Thank You my preaching is off now.

 

Yes, you always stay off the line (there's no reason for staying on the line, you're not running at speed?). Plus, you never know what's dropping off your car - grass, oil, a bumper, ...

 

"are you supposed to automatically drive off line after you spin? ive never heard of that in 10 yrs of doing de events"


Best, at least, to never reenter the track on line, for the reasons given in the prior post.

 

It isn't as simple as that.

You have to consider many things when re-entering the track and getting back around to pit lane.

For instance, you should never re-enter the track on-line... unless you have no other choice. Sure you might say that just sitting and waiting is a choice, but there is always the possibility that where you are is NOT a safe place to be, and you need to get out of the way to leave room for another spinning car. So if you DO need to get back on the track, then you need to pick a place where the possible effects of you doing so will be minimized. For instance... don't come back on track at the apex of a corner... don't come back on track in a braking zone... try not to come back on track too soon after a blind corner.

Also, if you are going to be coming back to the pit because of a spin, do stay off-line as long as possible, because almost invariably you will end up online at some point. Be cognizant of the track and where the "line" is, be aware of where "offline" and "online" switch sides, and use that information to try to minimize any effects to the line.

All that said... if you are unsure what to do, and you happen to be in a relatively safe spot, you can always sit and wait IN YOUR CAR, for a tow.


Art... please let me know which clubs you are attending that allow you to get out of your car after a spin, so that I can know to never attend those events. You NEVER EXIT YOUR CAR UNLESS IT IS ON FIRE OR YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO DO SO BY EMERGENCY PERSONNEL!

 

"For instance, you should never re-enter the track on-line... unless you have no other choice. Sure you might say that just sitting and waiting is a choice, but there is always the possibility that where you are is NOT a safe place to be, and you need to get out of the way to leave room for another spinning car. So if you DO need to get back on the track, then you need to pick a place where the possible effects of you doing so will be minimized. For instance... don't come back on track at the apex of a corner... don't come back on track in a braking zone... try not to come back on track too soon after a blind corner."


Well said, funny how much judgment you develop and take for granted. Knowing where to leave a disabled car so as not to end a session is something you learn, too. Hard to give simple rules that fit all situations, I've seen some amazing, unforseeable things happen in racing. To your list of excuses for getting out of the car - your car's on fire and you're told to get out - I'd add: you find yourself in a gator infested canal at Moroso.

 

I think I should preface this with I'm most familiar with S@@A events, here's hoping that doesn't offend too many readers, but usually the ideal process for re-entering the track would be: look for a corner worker (who should be able to see oncoming traffic better than an ensconced driver) who will signal you when to re-enter. They should be taking into account if they noticed (or heard anyone elses comments over the net) any leaking from your car or damage, if you're on wet grass or sand, to send you out when you've got room to get up to speed without interfering with the next car's lap.

Granted, there are times you can't sight a worker but I wouldn't expect a car to sit off track if the driver thinks he can continue. That's when it's time to trust that the flag stations prior to you are doing their part and signalling oncoming traffic that someone's off and that traffic should be prepared to deal with it. That's what flags are for!

mousecatcher: no offense taken, corner workers aren't immune to a complaint or three but jeesh, it shouldn't be about what they're there for!

I love self-cleaning situations, keeps the session going and doesn't keep you busy between sessions. I've wondered why we don't have a flag to tell a car to pull off track asap instead of letting them drip, drop, and spew all the way to pitlane.

 

Spidey,

At first I thought, no big deal, you had a leak and did not notice, that could happen, esp. if your experience level was low.

But there seems to be some 'tude. Did not "want" to hear it from the officials? You made a mistake and should in fact want to hear it, albeit unpleasant. Then it sounds lie a primary regret was your weekend being spoiled due to mechanical failure, with absolutely no mention of regeret for taking track time from all the other participants during cleanup.

Then the "there was no way to know" comment. Maybe then, but now you know or should know, for future reference to (1) never re-enter track on line (at the very least, you may track debris on the track); and (2) check your mirrors for fluid when you do re-enter track. Also, if you spun in your own coolant, that is somthing you should have been suspicious of and looking for before you re-entered the track.

Face it, you made an error and if you learned nothing about it, please let me know when you willnext return to the track so I know not to be there.

And if you think fluid down is no big deal, get a load of this - oil on line at Road America and a "wrecking yard" in the runoff as a result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQe0JV_8Yw0

If I am reading too much into your 'tude from posts, my apologies and better luck and etiquette next time on track.

 

"And if you think fluid down is no big deal, get a load of this - oil on line at Road America and a "wrecking yard" in the runoff as a result"


At first blush, that looks like some mediocre corner working. I believe the worker on the corner before the carousel is at least displaying a yellow, but under the circumstances frantic waving was called for. I also wonder a bit about the driver not seeing the mess, but as a racer I know it's hard to second guess others.

On the other hand, those cars run very close together in the draft and so it would be easy to have a mass pile-up.

 

Spidey,

Do you have a "leak" gauge? IMO you could put the contents of your diff, trans and a lot of your coolant and engine oil on track without any indication of a leak on the gauges I have. An off-track excursion could be caused by any of these and could cause any of these. When re-entering the track do it off line and check your mirrors for leaks. Stay off line until you know you are not dropping debris or fluids. If none of the organizations with which you drive ever taught this, shame on them. No you know and hopefully you agree that it is common sense and common courtesy to make sure nothing is coming off of your car when you re-enter after an OTE. And you don't rely entirely on your gauges to do this.

As for "only" 10 minute delay, I have been personally mortified when I screw up other's track time due to my mistake. I don't know how long your typical sessions are, but 10 minutes can be a significant fraction of other people's track time in the groups I run with.

Now if the officials spent 10 minutes berating you, that is overkill, too. I run a school and we chew someone who did what you did pretty good, but it is maybe a minute - we have other things to do than repeat what takes about a minute to explain.

But what happened was not out of your control - you should not have done it and certainly should not do it again. Ignorance the first time is understandable, but if you learned nothing from the experience and think you could not have done any better, then I would not want to share the track with you.

 

Waving with hands, yes, waving the yellow flag, no. That's emotional flagging, no matter how many cars are piled up off track if it's not on track you don't go waving. Like the driver said, it'd be nice to see the debris flag but I've got a slight hunch that wouldn't have slowed him down.

 

"Waving with hands, yes, waving the yellow flag, no."


As a longtime SCCA racer, in both open wheel and other race groups, I respectfully, but strongly, disagree.

If the corner workers saw that something on the track was causing a massive pileup - and maybe they didn't - frantic yellow flag waving was called for. The problem was ON TRACK, as well as off it. That extra effort in waving the flag creates in drivers a sense of urgency that, like it or not, a standing yellow never creates. IMO, during a race or qualifying session, most drivers react to a standing yellow by maintaing pace but becoming more vigilant, perhaps holding back a tenth of a tenth to avoid going off and adding to the mess. If you see car after car go off, you have to assume something's on the track. You want to slow drivers done, you need to yell and scream; that's just the way it is IMO.

I'm not at all saying the incident is the workers' fault! And we'll never know whether the driver in the video would have reacted to a waving flag, so maybe you're right. I'm surprised he didn't see the pileup, but I can't say more than that.

I'm also not telling you what SCCA flagging procedures require, because you know that far better than I do! I'm saying, again, that, if you want to communicate with drivers in such a situation, wave it and wave it big. These are amateur drivers and, yes, some of them will be tunnel visioned in the heat of battle - all the more reason to wave, throw rocks, shoot pellets, whatever it takes.

These things unfold quickly, and we don't have much video of the situation, so all this is probably stretching too far.

Like the drivers, many if not most workers are great and heads up.

I guess we're way off topic - on topic, the type of browbeating the OP describes is way out of line IMO, and may reflect a guy in love with his authority - we've all seen that in the track day world, no doubt.

 

As for the Kettle Road America pileup, it is hard to say for sure, but IMO black flag all was called for after 2 cars went off in the same spot; note one of the cars had rolled! The driver in the rolled car could need medical attention and the fact that more than one car went off made it dangerous for workers to get to that driver.

That said, having run at RA, a group of Miatas will be flat out, as close together as they can get in the carousel, looking for a good draft through the kink and down to Canada corner, so I can pretty much guarantee that if there was a train of several cars that every single one would have gone off, yellow or not. The guy in the video was not in a draft, but the bunch of cars already in the trap as he arrived may have been a derailed train that went off literally seconds beofre.

The SCCA does an excellent job and is the gold standard in safety workers - SCCA generally flags pro races, too, as ther is no "pro" flagging and corner oprganization that I know of.

On topic, sorry for any brow beating of the OP. I have made plenty of mistakes in my day, too!