Aluminum frame vs Carbon

Rofl. really theres nothing else to say to that.

 

Not only Pagani, but I thought Honda [F1, IIRC] mfgr'd a CF/TiTanium gear box, which was ambitious and quite amazing and seemed up for the job more that Honda.

Off-topic [since you mention new materials, I no longer --my mind does stray --age-- purchase Riedel Glassware, only Tritans now as they don't use lead, and use Titanium in their stem ware: VERY Strong and outlast Riedel for same cost]--back on topic

 

Speculation here, slight shift of topic:

The new McLaren is (according to the pre-release press) poised to trump the competition in its class. Much of this can be attributed to the use of a carbon tub over aluminum, among other things. It has more power and weighs less than the 458.

If its performance advantages really are as revolutionary as the claims suggest, will Ferrari adopt a carbon tub for its staple sports car line despite cost and its presence in racing? Will racing rules change to include the use of carbon tubs?

This is not simply due to the McLaren's presence, but the natural tendency of technology to progress. I think that it's safe to assume that carbon will not always be limited to hypercars despite the current cost implications and racing regs.

 

As pointed out Carbon tubs are legal in some races but there is also a desire to reign in costs in racing. The Fact that the MCC wasn't allowed to be raced at Le Mans was likely a desire to keep costs from getting even higher. Personally I think Ferrari has invested a lot of money in Aluminum fabrication facilities and will continue to use aluminium chassis's in most of their street cars. There is also the issue of repair. Carbon Fiber repair is complicated and expensive. I know of a CGT involved in a "minor" accident that was totalled due to cost of repairing/replacing carbon fiber tub.

As for the new Macca to find out what's inside you have to get past the body and when put next to a 458 that's going to be hard to do.

 

Very true. Throw in the throttle response and sound of a 9000 rpm N/A Ferrari V8 ... Well, you know.

Gotcha on the explanation. Interesting.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but most F1 teams including Ferrari use CF/Ti for their gearbox construction which has to handle high loads not only internally but additionally and mainly the loading of the suspension pickup points. Ti as a base material for the body is a bad application of the material in my view. Its hard to machine, takes special welding techniques and is much more rigid with less ability to shape and I don't think any of the alloys of Ti allow for self annealing like aluminum when shaping by hand or in a press die into a panel. IMO for a street car Aluminum is "better" than CF anyway due to its crumple affect on impact. Carbon is very rigid and absorbs the energy different than aluminum as it basically shatters and disentegrates where the aluminum deforms elastically intact. Also it does not take a lot of force to compromise carbon to where it will need repair. Case in point in conjunction with TESLA we service their cars here in Austin. The very first one delivered to Austin the second week in existence ran over a delaminated truck tire in front. Which is bad, but on top of the carbon front bumper, carbon rocker, carbon wheel well arches, carbon front, middle and rear diffuser undertray and other tidbits which needed replacing, we found the front crash box compromised in the tub and ended up sending the car back to the factory to be bonded back with a new crash box.

 

The quote below is from an Fchatter that was involved in a minor mishap with his CGT when he swerved to avoid another's mistake. I'm not being sarcastic. It really appeared to be very minor - speed was 25 mph, slid off road, damage appeared light...

"No frame [damage]. Basically the car is three pieces, the front, center cabin and rear. Any part gets damaged in one of those areas the entire area has to be replaced. Ready for this? The engine brace alone is $60K to replace. Front fenders and center liner, $46K, front undertray $23K, right front radiator is $8K, right front wheel $8K, left rear wheel $11K. You see where this is going? Estimated fixing cost was $272K. Just for parts."

I hope Ferrari sticks to Al for road cars.

 

CF Body panels are also an issue. If the 8C needs a lot of repair it has to back to the homeland.

 

Ferrari has never been the innovator, always the follower.
This goes back to drum brakes and front engines in F1.
It took them 8 years to catch the NSX's aluminum build construction with the 360.
McLaren will build its "mass production" car in CF to lead the way and Ferrari will follow down the road.

Ever see a 360 torn in half ? Or pics of one ?

 

Semi automatic gearbox anybody?. How they laughed in F1 back in '87 when the Ferrari's kept failing with gearbox issues.

They'd laugh at anyone trying to race without one now.

 

the plural of chassis is chassis. the only difference being in the pronunciation.

 

The F40 used a carbon kevlar composite in some places and carbon fiber in others.

 

And kevlar in others.

 

It wasn't straight kevlar as far as I know, it was a carbon kevlar composite....

 

My Cannondale R3000 Al frame w/ Dura Ace is light.
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Yes, some areas used full kevlar plies to improve abrasion and fracture resistance. The use of carbon/kevlar hybrids was limited back then.

 

What he said.....

Generally speaking, any damage to a carbon fiber structure results in a catastrophic and total failure ---- not the optimum design ideology for a "road car".

 

That may be the case, but I know many body panels are carbon kevlar composite. I have read it many times. Other parts many simply be kevlar, as some are carbon fiber.

 

Some people are making a big mistake in what they talk and think Carbon-Fiber as a chassis element.

The kind of carbon-fiber that is suitable for body pannels is vastly different than the kind of carbon-fiber that is suitable for the chassis structure.

CF is sufficiently strong and stiff that one can lay-up CF over a template and let typical epoxy or acrylic harden and be completly suitable for body pannels. This is what you typically find on hot-rodded japaneese cars. This kind of stuff is stiff enough to put up with wind, rain, and other stuff that happens around body pannels. In essence it is nothing more than typical fiberglass that happens to use a stiffer fiber.

The kind of stuff that is used as structural CF is an entirely different animal. {The Actual carbon fibers are the same stuff.} However, by and large, they are not organized as a mesh of a dozen fibers here and another dozen fibers at an orthogonal direction (repeat until the mesh is sufficiently big). Instead, often, an entire layer of the chassis is layed-up with fibers in one direction, then the next layer is layed up in the another direction. Often there are layers are 45 degrees and 30+60 degrees depending on the kinds of loads involved. Square corners are to be avoided as these cause stress risers and delaminate the bonding agent. Also difficult are attachments (where screws and bolts go into and/or through the structure).

After all this stuff lis correctly assembled, with all the sticky epoxy already applied with each layer, the whole thing is stuck in a giant plastic bag and a vacuum is applied to hold everything together while the chassis is moved into the autoclave, where it gets cooked at 900-ish degrees for between 4 and 24 hours with precise temperature control.

So the fibers are layed out differently, the bonding agents are different, the congelement of the bonding agent is different, and you still have numerous problems after it gets done with attaching stuff to this very stiff element. By contrast, steel is a breeze, aluminum is only a little difficult, this stuff is basically not able (at this time) to be put on an assembly line.

BTW the cost of the fiber and the cost of the expoy are quite small compared to the difficulty of using both to create a structural element with the desired properties.

 

Can you explain to me where the aluminum or titanium goes? Is it done in between two layers of the fibre to make an alternative pattern? I dont understand that bit. I understand how to do the body panels, but the chassis and F1 gearbox has me stumped. Some help in understanding would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Krish

 

Your post describes three different types of lay-up as one. Prepreg, wet hand lay-up and resin infusion. This would probably be confusing to most people.

 

i always assumed it was a very fine gauge mesh that could be moulded like carbon fibre

 

Hmm I figured it would either be a mesh or an ultra thin layer. But how do you mesh titanium? Isn't it a more brittle structure? By brittle I mean more resistant to bending unlike aluminum.

 

Thanks:
Didn't know all F1 teams were doing it, but makes sense. Thought Honda did the prototyping/develop. for F1. Will have to read more.

 

Big thanks to almost all the members of this thread, I learned a lot of things!