Are our oils failing us?

Rifledriver did the annual on my car recently, and I noticed that in addition to the usual 10qts of Redline 5-40 was a new line item: "Redline oil additive".

When questioned, he made pretty much the same comments as in your link - "They're taking some good stuff out of "modern oils", and the additive puts 'em back!"

So, I would certainly concur - It would even seem that your reference may be a little out of date, as it states that Redline is one of the few that remains "good" - I trust Brian 100%, and he knows the Redline guys and oils well - If he's using their additive, I reckon it's needed......

Cheers,
Ian

 

It is not so much the oils as the crazy oil weight system in use. This system confuses people into believing that oil is "just a fluid". The premiss is just plain wrong.

SM oil (especially anything with starburst on the lable) is (IS) bad for your Ferrari. It might be OK-ish for a toyota that never sees full throttle and never gets above 70 MPH and the owner does not need it to see the far side of 150K miles.

SL oils are still prefered for Ferraris, but even here, the owner/operator needs to know stuff about the numbers in the data sheets: numbers like HTHS, chemicals like ZDDP, moly (molibdinum-disulfide), and other things NOT PRINTED ON THE FRIGGEN lable.

If you own and drive a Ferrari the way Enzo wanted you to drive it, you can no longer remain ignorant of oil with a likely outcome of "nothing went wrong".

 

I'm getting ready to change the oil in my mondi. what would you guys recomend to use??
I've had a tough time locating Red Line

 

You don't have any of the "major" autoparts stores close by? According to Redline's site, it's carried by, among others, Autozone, OSH (!), and Pepboys etc - I reckon even if they don't stock it they could get it for you. Or, there's a bunch of mail order guys also listed.....

http://www.redlineoil.com/dealers.aspx

I'm sure there are other oils that are (may?) be as good, but as I noted, "if it's good enough for rifledriver, it's good enough for me!" - He told me he was really sold on it after rebuilding engines that he ran at Bonneville, and could tell which oil had been used by the look of the motors......

Good luck, cheers,
Ian

 

ThankYou Fast Ian

 

Advance, Pep Boys and Auto-zone don't carry Redline oil, just the water wetter and other additives. Fuel additives etc..click on the logos.
I've checked 100 sources and it's a crap shoot on prices.
The last 3 cases I got were from the local Chevron Bulk jobber in town for 8.30 a qt.

I use www.ZDDPlus.com with Redline 5W40 in the TR. On the next change I'll go with the Redline additive as well.

 

Go to Redlines site and read up on their products also go to Bobistheoilguy.com and go to virgin oil analysis forum and the UOA forum hugh amount of info.

The additive Brian is using is their ZDDP additive. Some of their oil weights have it some don't(not sure why) IIRC the 5-40 is low on the ZDDP and moly, new formula?, anyway go to the BITOG site there is info there on the Redline changes.

 

Its removal has been required by law for motor vehicle motor oil.

 

Redlines product is "Break in Additive". Among other things it restores the ZDDP levels to pre Federal removal mandate levels in up to 12 qts.

I understand many companies are doing similar but since Redline is only about 15 miles up the road, they do partial sponsorship on the race car and the products are quality I use theirs.

 

i get my redline oil from Summit. not sure where to get the oil additive. i have been using BG MOA in all my cars.

 

So, as I add oil on a periodic basis, say every 500-1k miles of 1 qt. Am I needing to concern myself with a dram or two of that Break in Additive over the course of a year?

OR

not that much to worry about. With about 3-6k miles min. per year on a car, not sure if I should put the correct smidgen into the tank.
r

 

Just yesterday I was digging again on technical information about oil. Shells Rotella T has been reduced to 1200ppm ZDDP and is the choice among many for break-in on engines. they now have a blend T5 and full synth T6 all of which have the needed ZDDP levels flat tappet cams need.

the reduction in ZDDP was due to a link of premature catalytic failure or efficiency from the phosphorus levels. which makes me wonder about the newer exotics, as the new API oils vary in ZDDP below 800ppm (0.08%) which is not enough.

The Rotella T is a API CJ-4 diesel rated oil.
Valvoline Vr1 and from Valvoline

However with more reading and research my head starts to hurt as each oil co starts to contradict one another on the issue of how much zinc or phosphorus which is limited to 1200ppm in CJ-4 but not in CI-4 oil and only has 1ppm in SM oils.

and then there's the % ppm vs mole (atomic mass) for density of the zinc phosphorus amounts.

head spinning yet? spend a few hours over at BTOG!

Here in Ca the CARB had a small paragraph in the minutes of the 2007 new/used catalytic converter law, about the push for a F-ZDDP mandate on oil. however it's out of the scope of the CARB. As all shop owners here know the tampering with "emissions related eq." is a state and federal crime. and
the issue of federal warranty on catalytic converters and emissions is the driving force on the ZDDP issue. Who gets screwed when they decide to assign blame for premature failure? I'd suspect in the future that if you had premature cat failure the dealer may do a oil analysis and if it'd determined that you used oil that is not API rated or found a ZDDP additive you would be liable, and if it was a shop who used the oil they would be sanctioned.

I think that the EPA has banned the use of ZDDP additives in street cars as well, something I'm trying to research.

 

If it's a car without roller cams (among other things), yes.

 

seems to me we get to choose if we want to replace our cams or our catalytic convertors.

anyone have comparison costs for 4 cams vs the cats?
I suspect the cat will be cheaper just because it should require a lot less labor.

 

posted the question to Redline directly on their web site [they'll probably think newb towards me, but whatever]

wanted some sort of answer from them on periodic maintenance without going through all the lab work...

seems like, so much per oil change, easily translates into x/quart. But not sure of how ZDDP residuals stay in a system etc.

OR

if too much ZDDP is of concern.....going to performance

 

Cats are lasting well over 100,000 miles in Ferraris that have remained in a correct state of tune already so the cat aging concern for us is a non issue. We have been seeing cat failures often in these cars since their introduction but those failures have been almost exclusively due to running issues. Advanced wear and aging issues are not on the radar screen.

 

From Redline:

Redline Factory Rep. in phone discussion, stated the amount of ZDDP, about 1,200/mil., is in their Products now and as I recall, that is fine for a normal street car: Off the shelf Redline is fine. Unless doing a rebuild of the engine, the additive is not seeming to be required. IF Rifledriver put it in my car I would have no concern: he's much better at this than I ever could be, so I'd absolutely defer to his judgment.

And as others stated, the CATs would have to get way too much through them from their products to be considered for CATs to fail. The fed requirement to lower ZDDP etc. is to prolong life of CATs [perhaps other issues over a LONG time] but CAT failure from 1,200/mil, while lowering a CATs life span isn't the major issue for CATs experienced today: Something else help that failure, and not that particular formulation, especially considering the amount of miles some Ferrari drivers do in thier cars = very low.

Seems there might be 'some slight' concern qualifying in SMOG tests, with too much ZDDP, but we all seem to pass these normally now with off the shelf products, so, if failing SMOG, the problem lies probably elsewhere.

I rely on others in this area, so, will defer to better experts...for me, I'm in the 'no concern' corner of Redline missing adequate additives for normal street Ferraris, and if added during an oil/fluids change then I would expect it NOT to be an issue. Since I replace every year, min., I see no need to even do the additive during the year.

This is a non issue for me, but a nice edumicatimummm

 

this also comes down to the ASTM D7320-09 testing. they use a spring rate of 350lbF/in and have concluded no issues, seems that the 350lbF/in spring rate is the tipping point.
doing some spring calcs from pre-load to deflected for the K value the 308 & 355; 308 2v has a 373.39lbF/in rate new & the 355 is 295.13lbF/in.

There are other considerations of ramp angle, nose radius and acceleration force of the valves all of which is RPM dependent and could be calculated should I care to take the time.

doesn't seem like the newer engines are in the danger area. however this is only based on math and static physics calcs.

 

There is a lot of confusion on this thread.
First of all, the ZDDP molecule weighs 10-15 times what zinc (Zn) or phosphorus (P) content weighs. So a P concentration of 800ppm corresponds to a ZDDP concentration of ~1.0% or 10000ppm.
Second, there are NO modern oils with "no zinc" or "no ZDDP". SM limits are 600ppm<P<1000ppm, not "1ppm"
Most emission controlled HDEO (heavy duty engine oils, CJ4 category) are 900-1100ppm P, the upper limit is 1200.
I'd suggest downloading an SAE Technical Article #2004-01-2986 "How Much ZDP is Enough?". It's a meta-study; their conclusion is that 600ppm P is enough for engines other than flat tappet, high valve spring pressure.
I believe Ferraris have advanced engines, I'd guess with roller tappets?
The only other area where ZDDP is needed in high concentrations is high soot concentrations, mainly an issue with post 98 diesels, see SAE 2000-01-1993 "Performance of an Advanced Synthetic Oil"; not an issue with gasoline engines.
My point: even a SM oil supplies good protection; an SL, even better.
Use additives with caution and a calculator. 1 oz of ZDDPlus added to 7.5L of oil increases Zn by 280, P by 210. 4 oz of Redline Breakin increases 7.5L of oil Zn by 330, P by 280, Ca by ~300.
Concentrations of P over 1600ppm can increase wear; >2000ppm can cause catastrophic chunking of camshaft lobes, so calculate and use additives carefully!
I use a 16oz bottle of Redline in 30 qts of Delvac 1 SHC to increase Ca to 4950 (increase TBN=total base number from 16 to 17), Zn to 1500 and P to 1360.

Charlie

2005 Unimog U500/Unicat camper.

PS: ZDDPlus is a 4 oz bottle; Zn=71000, P=51500
Redline Breakin is 16oz; Zn=20000, P=17000, Ca=20000

 

On some of the classics I use Shell Rotella T 15W 40. According to the manufacturer:

"Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 with Triple Protection Technology, our API CJ-4/SM specification product, typically contains about 1200 ppm zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorous as manufactured."

Sounds good to me without the need for additives. It's a much thicker, heavy duty oil then was required back in the day, so that's even more protection. Gallon jug at Wallymart for $11.