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1999 355 OEM alarm system

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by nats702, Nov 24, 2009.

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  1. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #1 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    Kent/Or To Whom it may concern. I am with NorthAmerican Technical & Forensic Services in Las Vegas, NV (www.forensicauto.com) and we were asked to conduct a forensic examinaton on a reported stolen 1999 355 that was recovered burned. The examination of the driver side floor resulted in the recovery of most igition lock parts, specifically "pin" type wafer tumblers (2) we need to confirm that this model uses a pin type wafer tumbler lock and that the remaining pins had been consumed. We have received an aftermarket Fiat key with no fob. In the research that we have done, it appears that any anti-theft system this vehicle is equipped with has a "master" fob which activates the system. According to statements made, the master fob was either lost or was left in the vehicle at all times. If the fob is left in the vehicle, will the passive system activate or are there security measures to prevent the vehicle from arming with the fob inside? Feel free to contact us at if you need to confirm our identity.

    Thank you for any assistance you can be
     
  2. mwhitesell

    mwhitesell Formula 3

    Sep 17, 2006
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    Mark
    #2 mwhitesell, Nov 24, 2009
    You have to push the button on the red fob (master) or black fob to disable the alarm and allow the vehicle to start. Having it in the car would not prevent the car from locking or arming. The alarm box is behind the drivers seat. As for the tumbler, I'm sure someone will have an answer, I've never had mine apart. Do you have a VIN for this car?
     
  3. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #3 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    No we only obtain the last 8 of the VIN and in this case, fire damage was pretty severe so we could not read it. So from what you said, if the FOB is left in the vehicle, you could feasibly lock the doors and use a key to open? From what we have been told, the car automatically sets itself after the engine is shut down or is inactive for specific period of time if this is the case, then how is the alarm disabled if the fob is not in your possession? Does the key inserting into the door disarm it?
     
  4. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2002
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    #4 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
    Only by cycling the key a certain number of time which enters the PIN, without the PIN its not possible to start the car without a fob, either master or slave.
    No, it only opens the door, the alarm system, and the immobilizer are still armed
     
  5. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #5 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    Thank you, this helps as we seem to have conflicting statements about where this fob was at the time of the reported theft and and as I am sure you are aware this is not your every day "stolen" vehicle.
     
  6. mwhitesell

    mwhitesell Formula 3

    Sep 17, 2006
    1,083
    Atlanta
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    Mark
    #6 mwhitesell, Nov 24, 2009
    Also the process to start the car with the PIN is somewhat involved. While it is possible, it's pretty unlikely. It's a good bet that the person who took the car had one of the fob's with them. Going around the alarm box is also possible, but it is even harder to do, and if the person knew how to do that they probably would not have set the car on fire. If you need more details on this process PM me.
    It sounds as though this person might have been way behind on the bill, and all of a sudden it's stolen and on fire. That sucks for the car.
    The last 6 on the VIN would be great, that's really all we need to identify the car if you can share this.
     
  7. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #7 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    Thanks but I cannot share any of the VIN numbers, we appreciate the attempt to assist as this one is difficult at best. As for the fob, it appears that this is going to be what we need to determine, apparently it has been stated that it was kept in the vehicle at all times. So our real issue is if the vehicle is locked and the car has self armed and the key is used to unlock the door, what will happen? Do all the alarm functions activate until the button is pushed on the Master fob?
     
  8. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2002
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    #8 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
    Yes, It need not be the master fob, either one will work, they both have the same function in that regard.

    The master's other function is to program the ECU, not applicable in this case.
     
  9. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #9 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    That is some "Garage" you have Ferraridriver
     
  10. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #10 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    "So our real issue is if the vehicle is locked and the car has self armed and the key is used to unlock the door, what will happen? Do all the alarm functions activate until the button is pushed on the Master fob?"

    I realize this may be a security issue and if you can answer this question via pm, please do so. Our concern is, if the fob is kept in the vehicle and the car is armed, why would an owner want to fumble to find the fob and disarm and hypothetically, if a thief managed to enter the vehicle, they would not be aware of where the fob was and would the alarm functions draw attention until the fob is located and alarm functions are disarmed?
     
  11. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #11 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
    Thanks, I been hoping the 355 would mysteriously burn to the ground without scorching anything else. Rather have what its insured for than the car. LOL


    just kidding ya know
     
  12. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #12 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
    Yes
    I think you have answered your own question, now all you have to do is prove it in court.
     
  13. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
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    #13 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    Lucky for you the vehicle we are looking at was not recovered in your area of the country. But like you said to me, "you answered your own question". Yes there are automotive forensic examiners.
     
  14. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #14 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
  15. nats702

    nats702 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2009
    8
    #15 nats702, Nov 24, 2009
    Thanks, that would help if we had the time to get the book. We unfortunately have to get this examination report completed as there are time constraints. But thank you, we may have to get one to keep for future reference.
     
  16. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

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    #16 eulk328, Nov 24, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
    Can't answer your question since my alarm is not 100% functional but these cars came with 3 alarm key fobs when new. Any one or two could be left in the car and the third could still be used to arm/disarm the car. Having said that, I don't know if the owner told you he only had one etc.

    MANY of these cars, after changing hands a few times, seem to have only one (maybe two) key fobs left. Somewhere there is a black hole where all the other key fobs have gone.


     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    #17 tazandjan, Nov 24, 2009
    Not to step on any toes, but the alarm and immobilizer operate separately. If the car was locked and alarm armed and immobilizer activated (actively or passively after 60-120 secs), the alarm system can be disarmed with the key alone or with the remote fob.


    The immobilizer can only be deactivated by the fob or an alternate method beyond the scope of this discussion.


    So, yes, the key will disarm the alarm system. It will not deactivate the immobilizer. Try it on your car if you do not believe it. I did.


    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  18. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #18 ferraridriver, Nov 24, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
    Terry, I thought the same, tried it on my 550 and the key does not deactivate the alarm system. I locked it, set the alarm with the remote, waited a couple of minutes, unlocked with the key and the siren sounded and lights flashed on opening the door. I then disabled the alarm by pressing the remote.

    Maybe 575 are different, but I just now repeated the same test on my 355 with the same results.

    On a 355 or a 550 the key alone will NOT deactivate the alarm system, and yes, I know there are two systems, I believe I mentioned that earlier, the key alone will deactivate neither.
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 tazandjan, Nov 24, 2009
    Dave- Interesting. Will try mine when I get home. I may have screwed up. I may have misinterpreted what I was doing.

    Thanks for the correction.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,257
    socal
    #20 fatbillybob, Nov 25, 2009

    Read the owners manual or contact Ferrari north america to find the company answers and to find the various places the vin is placed. It should be no problem to get the answers you need once you verify your idenity with FNA. The car would have to be a molten blob to not be able to read the vin in one of the many places ferrari puts it.
     

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