Whut's a po boy to do?

+1000 People who worship a corporation really need to get a life. Seriously. Go to church.

+10000 Some of the cockiest and most pompous people I have ever encountered have been on this forum. My ignore list here has over 40 people on it . . .

+1000000 . . . LOL! ... except you forgot the biggest F-car fanboy word thrown around on this forum, "brand"!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!! LOLLERS!!!! ROFLMFAO!!!!!!

Look, there's that word!


This thread is absolutely RIDICULOUS! Really incredible.

 

There is nothing wrong with being passionate about something. Some people are passionate about art, others sport, and some all things mechanical.

Ferrari is not so much a brand, its not like the Gap, for example, as it is part of a lifestyle to some and an object of desire to others.

Ferrari automobiles are rolling art and brilliant pieces of engineering. For those of us who are into such things, they are not only worthy of being admired, but certainly worthy of being passionate about. On top of that, for those of us with sporting interests, Ferrari is a legend in that arena--off the charts really.

They also have a great back story and an enigmatic founder whose life philosophies and manner of doing business are both inspirational, cautionary and instructive.

Ferrari is not "another brand." Should they be treated with the same reverence as one's religion? Of course not. But I am not embarrassed, nor should anyone, with being passionate about the Marque.

 

I always recommend Porsche and Corvette to "certain" guys for one simple reason ---

For the same cost as a 'serious' Ferrari, you can get the Porsche (or the Vette) .....and, still have enough money left over for a penile implant and hair plugs !!!

 

...followed by "broken"....

 

Joe -

As usual, your post is eloquent and thoughtful. For clarification, please note two things:

1) I am not condemning being passionate about something; I'm condemning making it too important in one's life, or as I stated, worshiping it like a religion. Big difference. Never did I say anything against (or even about) being passionate. Some people just take it (and many other things) too far.

2) My mention of the word "brand" is to point out how much people throw that word around on here, and how strung up many people on here are over "the brand"; I made no statements regarding the value of Ferrari as a brand.


In short, if what you posted was with intent to counterpoint what I wrote (implied by the fact that you quoted me), I'd say that your comments are not relevant to what I wrote (as they do not directly address my points), and that I don't disagree with you.

Cheers,

TK

 

Hey! The original 912 was a great car!

 

FWIW, I understand where you are coming from, and I think you make all fair points.

 

I personally think it is bigger than "just" Ferrari.
I used to have Porsches....and while their history is fabulous they have now turned into a suburban status symbol car. It used to be in the 70s and 80s that the Porsche driver was a true enthusiast, now you are just as likely to see a 911 circling for parking spot close to the Mall entrance, while the Mrs. chats on the phone, and yes it is of course an automatic. When this evolution took place Porsche lost interest to me.

Ferrari, and other Italian cars, have not "yet" morphed into that. Owners are still "enthusiasts" who put up with a lot of grief and expense for their love.

I love Maseratis as much as Ferraris. Alfas are special too. Lambos....well, I'm not so sure anymore.....Audi is sterilizing that for me.

 

Wait till you join a BMW forum!!!

 

Oh come on. Still mad at me? Lol jk.

But I do agree about your points. Being passionate and trying to make something your religion when it shouldn't be is quite different.

There are dicks driving all sorts of cars just cause they can afford them. I have seen complete pricks in Lambos, Ferraris, even more in Porches, and they really start to come in boatloads when you get near BMWs, Corvettes, and recently Skylines(<- this one really pisses me off because I was a GT-R fan since I was 4 and still am. These 2fake 2lame cocks are annoying to no ends). The Skyline guys are all JDM yo, and are just irritating for their stupidity. BMW owners for the most parts have their nose stuck up so high you would be surprised their nose isn't upside down. Then there are corvette owners who think their cars are start all end all cars. Hate almost all of them.

What I have noticed for actual enthusiasts that are not utter pricks, the lowest concentration of pricks per car belongs to Viper guys. They are quite proud of their car, but never try to rub it in you that their car is better or anything like that. Same goes for specifically the Terminator COBRA guys. They are happy with their car, and don't need to push it to you. If you like it cool, if not whatever.

Lambo guys, same thing as Ferrari guys. You can find quite a few proper enthusiasts. Then there are those that make good money, want to stick out, went with a big brand like that, instead of staying down. Why did I say brand? Because those people don't care about the Marque's rich history, They are there for the badge, and the crowds it draws.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of non-enthusiasts buy Porsches for the brand cache alone and, yes, because they build a lot of them, they have lost the exclusivity that once existed. HOWEVER, Ferrari is replete with garish owners who buy the cars either to get laid or impress the neighbors. They have no appreciation for the car's capabilities or history, outside of what the latest stats are... I'll take Mrs. Chats in her Porsche over one of these D$%bags any day.

I am not a Porsche guy. To me they are an engineering company that makes cars, which leaves them a bit wanting from a fun standpoint (just my .02). However, I have tremendous respect for their racing history, their commitment to competition and the quality and performance of their automobiles. I just can't wrap my head around Ferrari owners not respecting Porsches. You don't have to like them, but you have to be able to give a nod to the company and the enthusiasts who drive them. If you can't respect Porsche's racing pedigree, how can you really appreciate a Ferrari as anything more than a fast pretty car?

To me, Porsche and Ferrari have far more in common than Ferrari and Lamborghini.


As long as Porsche keeps winning races in production based automobiles, they can build all the fugly four door sedans they want


Just my .02

 

That's a great way of putting it. So true.

 

I think the number one problem with Porsche is that 99% of the company is based on the 911. If you like the shape of the 911, Porsche appears to be poised to keep you happy for a long time.

If not?....Yes, they have other cars, but the heart and soul of Porsche is absolutely held within the sheet metal of the 911. The Cayman and Boxster are great looking, great driving sports cars. But both are low on the totem pole, underpowered, underdeveloped from what they could be. Where is the Cayman GT3-RS?

So when Clarkson says a GT3 is just a hopped up VW Beetle, I completely agree. It's too bad, because if you look at the different cars that Porsche has made, the 911 is about the last one that I would have said "oh yeah, that's the look we want". I mean, look at the CGT. It's not like they don't have talented designers. Why not let them out every so often?

And what if they did make something like the Cayman into a car faster than the 911. Why would that be such a bad thing?

 

+1000!!!

Ummm...I am OK with letting them out, but somebody at VW/Audi needs to be holding the end of the leash Have you seen the Panamera in person yet? It is a visual disaster IMHO

Its a shame too, because it is probably one exceptional performance car.

 

...however, it always makes for great theater. To read this thread is to be fascinated...in fact, it's a hoot!

I did see a few cogent posts here, but in general, the value of a thread like this one suffers because of bias (understandably so, since in this case, the board is called FerrariChat.com).

It's a lot of fun, though, to watch how 'passion' for one's favorite car colors the dialogue here, but the liberal use of invectives when referring to certain car models or their manufacturers does not contribute to a reasoned discussion about the merits of one car over another. Further, a good number of posters are simply defending their purchase decisions by debasing other cars they didn't buy or choose not to own.

Write on, guys!

 

One of the many reasons why out of close to 50 cars owned through the years, I haven't owned a BMW, and probably won't -- the people. I've encountered so many BMW pricks (I've always heard that porcupine joke given in reference to BMWs) that I've pretty much tuned out to BMWs, blocked BMWs out of my mind's automotive world. There are better or equally engineered and appointed cars (Porsche, Mercedes) that negate any engineering or personal pleasure benefits of choosing a BMW as a daily driver. Ultimately, life is about people, not things, so I feel fine incorporating the human element into my tastes and purchasing decisions for cars.

Agreed 100%. If there is any auto maker that is equal or greater than Ferrari in racing pedigree, it's Porsche. For Ferrari fans to throw around "history" and "pedigree" and then sneer at Porsches is complete hypocrisy. And Porsches have always been in the top tier of best and most thoroughly engineered cars in the world; to not respect that is to either just be irrationally and excessively biased or just plain stupid or ignorant.

I'll go out on a limb and say that as the Baby Boomers start to "f-f-f-faaaade awayyyy"** and are replaced by the Generation Xers as the primary new sports/GT car buying audience, there is a chance that Porsche may (have the opportunity to) escape the shackles of being defined by the 911. Boomers love 911s, whereas mid-engined cars find a lot more favor among today's thirty- and forty-somethings. To many boomers, Porsche is the 911, and every non-911 was greeted with comments such as "not a real Porsche" or some form of disdain. To many x-ers, on the other hand, the Porsche they came to know and identify with included the 914, 928, and 944, and those cars are just as much "Porsche" as the 911.

Continuing out on my limb, I think the Cayman was a great move on Porsche's part, in that it fills a growing niche for a mid-engined car with a roof that falls between cheap (like an MR2) and super expensive (like an F430). Citing the roadster craze of the 90s-2000s and their many boomer buyers, I think that as more Gen-Xers reach financial maturity, they will be attracted to new cars that follow the mid-engined/hardtop/GT formula they fell in love with in their "automotive awakening" as children and teens. Currently that void is filled only by Porsche and Lotus -- two names that every kid who ever played "Test Drive" on their Apple or Commodore computer, or watched Cannonball Run or Miami Vice or Roger Moore as James Bond can relate to. So here's to hoping for that Cayman Turbo and Cayman GT3, etc.

By the way, the upcoming/proposed "928 spiritual successor" front engine GT is yet another potential stake in the much-needed diversification of Porsche.





** (talkin' 'bout their g-g-g-generation )

 

Got news for you, chief...Porsche still makes many of its cars with a proper stick and clutch pedal, much more so than Ferrari. Are there ANY more Ferraris with manual trannys, or are they undegoing the rueful "evolution" of which you so distatstefully speak?

 

Chief...it is about the intent of the car and the evolution in its owner demographic.
It is not your to call to proclaim an F1 manual "not proper" as compared to a manual with a clutch pedal...you see they both are manuals..you see that right?
There is no doubt the Italian sportscar owner is a different demographic from the Porsche one. That has evolved......that is the point.

 

I really like the cayman I drove and don't understand what all this talk is of subpar engineering either. In all honesty I am finding it hard to bother with a 911 at all(except for the GT3, and GT2, and sort of for the Turbo)


I mean the one I drove did not feel subpar to any of the 911s I drove(base and a 2s and a 4). It felt every bit as thorough and involving as any of the those three, and if I am honest I like the stability a lot more.

The only thing I want from Porsche is to stop limiting the cayman behnd the 911. Maybe make a long wheelbase variant, with closer to GT3 level power? Or start giving it Carrera+ power? I mean 360-370bhp on a Cayman makes it genuinely fast in all ways.

 

I think that's it, right there. I think that when people talk about 'subpar engineering' in the Cayman, they are referring to the fact that Porsche have deliberately "held back" with the car so as to not reach its full potential, or make it faster or better than the 911. This is the most disappointing thing Porsche has ever done in my eyes. I certainly hope they change their attitude. Either way, Cayman is my favorite current Porsche

 

I like both Porsche and Ferrari. And I usually have both at the same time, though there are gaps in my Ferrari ownership, but not in my Porsche ownership. They are definitely different cars and each is appropriate for its specific use. I won't say one is better than the other, because there are times when only one of them will do.

Point number two: Even though all 911's have the motor way back in the back to make room for the small back seat, the different year models don't look the same to me. They have evolved and improved in a way that is very recognizable and it looks like a highly evolved style that is true to the original nature of the car without being boring. The size has even drastically changed through the years. It would have to go by really fast or be a long way off to mistake one generation for the other.

Point number three: I have had Boxsters, Caymens, and 911's. The 911's are much more solidly built. To give the horsepower of the 911 to the other two cars, and do it in a way that Porsche engineers would choose to tackle the task, the cars would have to be stiffened, the brakes made larger, the body opened up for more cooling and air flow and the corresponding suspension upgrades would add enough weight to make some of that horsepower do nothing but support the extra heft. They would be as heavy as the 911. The recently announced Boxster Spyder is the wave of the future for Porsche sports cars. It adds lightness by deleting modern content creep. Kind of like what the Challenge Stradale did for the 360. We'll see if that catches on. The 911 (even the GT3) doesn't lend itself to that type of experiment.

Point number four: I liked my CS better than my 360 but I liked my 430 better than my CS. A decade ago, I liked my 550 a whole lot better than my 355. This makes me think that a newer car nearly always makes up for the shortcomings of the earlier models. And in the case of the 550/355 preference, maybe I'm more of a GT than Sports Car type person. That's why I can't decide on a 458 versus 599. I think if the 599 changes to dual clutch (like my current 911), that I would rank it higher than the 458.

Just thinking out loud here, not trying to argue with anyone. But I am pointing out some of what I think about when I read comparisons between two very great cars, neither of which needs bashing to elevate the other.

 

And if that is not enough to make you hate me: I love Cayennes. I've had three of them. And the Panamera is beginning to look better and better.

And Porsche can make all the variations they choose to make and their buyers choose to purchase. That way I can pick "the one" I want and you can pick "the one" you like and everybody will be happy. Even though all are expensive, it doesn't make sense to take their cheaper models and "upgrade" them to compete with their more expensive models. That would be competing with themselves. It just doesn't make good business sense.

 

At the end of the day....95% of people who own Porsche's and Ferrari's can't drive em' so.....what does it really all mean? Just enjoy your life, your passions, your cars, your kids etc. Who gives a **** about everything else. All this money and education and no common sense....classic.

 

But thats not subpar. Porsche made that the tuner Porsche if you will, the overall engineering is just as good as a 911.

From what I am hearing, it isn't that difficult to pull the cayman s to 350bhp, the standard to 310bhp. Stiffening the chassis? Again a couple of braces here and there it would be just as well. I personally felt the cayman s to have better transitional stability than the 911s. And its turn in was sharper at the really tight turns. High speed the 911 feels more stable but I think thats more from the better aero pieces(not that pricey to put in a cayman). Brake wise I haven't heard a complaint from the carbon ceramic option, and if I am honest, I looked at the cayman brakes, and trust me you are kidding yourself if you think it needs bigger brakes you are kidding yourself. If you want to track that car a lot more, all you need are motul rbf660 fluid, and better pads. Thats a 2800lb car. My 240sx is stopping on just with 11inch rotors, and 4 pot front, and 10inch rotors, sliding single piston rear, at the track. And it weighs a not much 150lbs lighter than the caymans official curb weight.

So I highly doubt the Cayman with its 12.5inch front 11.8inch rear rotors and 4 pots all around would have trouble with 150lbs extra, 20 of which can be easily remedied with the GT3 seats.

Trust me the cayman is a blank canvas waiting to be perfected, I was very impressed and did my homework with it, its entirely possible to have a fast cayman, and at 40grand for a really good one with a motor already broken in, I really am not even looking at any other porsche.

 

My mechanic is developing a Cayman based race car for a client. The performance potential for the Cayman is staggering. It wouldn't have taken much for Porsche to have made this car a 911 beater.