308 V12 conversion begins | Page 122 | FerrariChat

308 V12 conversion begins

Discussion in '308/328' started by mk e, Oct 9, 2007.

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  1. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    Oct 1, 2008
    38,744
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    Andrew
    Awesome. :D

    Might I interest you in finding some way to film and video-post the first start-up so all your fans can see it? ;)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  2. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Sure I can video it…..but hopefully it will be very uneventful and boring. My only goal during start-up is to get the engine idling and warmed up, the timing set, check for leaks ect. I’m planning a very very sloooow and loooong break-in period just in case some of the castings think they want to move around a bit once they get some heat cycles in them. Plus there is a lot of tuning to be sorted out. It will probably be a month form first start to full rpm and another few week to full power.

    The video you want to see/hear is the one I make after I’m comfortable that everything is right ;)
     
  3. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    Oct 1, 2008
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    I think we want to see both videos, really. :)

    The first start-up is a wonderful moment, just as the full power runs later on will be awe-inspiring. :cool:

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  4. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2004
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    Nah, you should just put a webcam up... I'll send you my Rosetta Stone-Italian so you can learn to cus in the proper language!!

    Rick
     
  5. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    Oct 1, 2008
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    What if he does something interesting whilst I'm asleep or out for lunch? Will anybody be recording? :eek:

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Funny you mention WebCam….I haven’t heard from them since I got the email with the cam data last Wednesday. I sent them a reply early Monday approving the lobe profiles and asking what’s next. They asked for a TR cam and UPS says they got that yesterday…..now I just wait to find out what kind of damage will be done to the project budget and when I get to see cams I guess.
     
  7. ramosel

    ramosel Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2004
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    And hence the need to curse in Italian becomes even more relevant!!! <grin>

    This project is such fun to watch! Can't wait to see your intake solution for the gaping holes you opened up in the heads!!

    Rick
     
  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Sadly the solution to the holes in the heads is about 20-40 hours of welding. I think I’ll be about a month roughing the ports in filling up all the holes before I’m ready to start any actual finish machining and porting. Another week or 2 on headers first though then I’ll be on to the heads. I’m off the last couple weeks of December and I’ll be trying hard to get most of the head welding done.

    I just placed an order for a cylinder worth or aftermarket Honda ATV valves, springs, retainers as well as shim under buckets to look at. I think the valves will be too short and I’ll end up needing to do something custom but hopefully the springs and retainers will do the trick and the valves will be a good guide and something to measure from.
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #3034 mk e, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009

    I spoke too soon. I got a call just now and Lorie said she&#8217;ll work the price quote up now that she knows the lobe samples are approved. She said 3-4 week delivery with the plating, heat treating, journals ground, cams ground. She also said she will email me the complete lift vs degree electronic file so I can plug the it into the simulator and get more actuate info out to work with.
     
  10. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

    Mar 13, 2005
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    Mark, I'll say the quote should be between $4000-$4500
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Why would you say something mean like that? What have I ever done to you?





    :)
     
  12. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #3037 mk e, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  13. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

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    #3038 Pizzaman Chris, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009

    Cause I'm a friend and i didn't want you to be shocked when they tell you.


    Damn these cars!! (shaking fist in the air)
     
  14. harmitc

    harmitc Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    207
    England
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    Bernard R
    Those headers are looking great! Best thread on F'chat!

    Thanks also for spending the time to document and post all the work you are completing so we can all follow progress.
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I'll be shocked if it's that high, that's $90/lobe. That is the right number if they had to weld up the lobes....I'm thinking (hoping)under $3000. Joe was thinking under $2000 which is way I stuck with him so long.

    I got the full profile info from web last night sort of. The person sending it i guess thought they were helping be converting it from a cam pro file that I could import directly into dynomation into a text file that I had to paste into excel to fix it up and get it back into an importable format.

    Anyway I got the file fixed up and the numbers look good. The software is still saying just over 800hp and that the engine would pull to 10k if I let it. It still really wants a 17" intake length as it adds 20 hp and drops the hp peak 750 rpm and just makes everything better....and 17" still doesn't fit. Tonights side project will be to remeasure all the areas while I'm in the shop just to be sure I have the right stuff plugged in to the software.
     
  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    A little playing in the simulator and the software thinks I should install the intake cam at 108/109 and the exhaust at 115 giving me a lobe separation angle and cam centerline angle of 112 instead of the 110 I’ve been using as the baseline. Rolling the cams coupled with an 11.5” stack instead of 11” adds about 10hp from idle to 9250 then drops down even at the 9500 redline. I’m not sure how much to believe these numbers as cam timing change accuracy is a know weakness in the software….but it seems reasonable I think....maybe....
     
  17. gmoore

    gmoore Rookie

    Jul 18, 2004
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    Greg Moore
    Mark - how are you determining the redline of 9500? Isn't one of the major limitations to a high redline the valve train? Is there something in the software that can calculate valve float by looking at spring stiffness, valve weight, etc? I'm sure piston speed is an easy calculation but knowing what to limit it too is where the judgement area comes in. This is hardly stock, but I am surprised the number is that high. That is a lot of mass moving around. Just curious how you arrived at the 9500 number.

    Love the thread - find myself checking it multiple times a day! Thanks for taking the time to so carefully document your work -

    Greg
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Piston speed.

    I’m not really worried about valve float at 9500. The engine most of the valve train is coming form has a 9500 redline stock and runs safely to over 10k with the springs I’m planning to use.

    The valve train will be fine. The pistons will be fine. I’m a little worried about the timing chain but not real worried. I’m also a bit worried about flex in the block but again I think it will be fine. Hopefully I’m not living in an “ignorance is bliss” world that reality is going to destroy along with my engine.

    I was hoping to see the HP peak at more like 8000 - 8500 so there would be no point in going to much past 8500 where I have a lot more confidence in all the parts…..but that just isn’t working out. I guess I could just say 8500 and live with a pitiful 783 hp instead of the 818 at 9250 (826 if I’m brave enough to go from 10.5CR to 11:1)……..
     
  19. hotrod406

    hotrod406 Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2007
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    I'd be a lot more confident with 11:1 than 9300 rpm. New cars run 11:1 and up now. I think you'll be plenty safe at that. You could probably do 11.5. The LS3 I'm building is going to be 11:1+ and the 6.0 liter LS1 that I built for my wife's car is 11:1. I know they are different motors but you have complete access and freedom with the combustion chambers, etc to limit the possibility of detonation.

    I'm surprised that a half point compression only nets 8hp. I would have thought it'd be more like 25.
     
  20. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
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    Gains from increasing the compression are a diminishing return. Great increases from 8:1, 9:1, but after that the percentage increase drops.

    I'd take a look at this:

    http://victorylibrary.com/brit/compression-c.htm

    Art
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Nice link and the numbers they give come out very close to what the sim software is saying.

    I would love to go up to 11:1 as there are gains across the board….but if there is detonation having to pull timing out will more than erase any gains I got from the added CR and I hate the ought of maybe having to pull the pistons out and cut them.

    I guess I need to dig around a little more to see what the Honda boys are doing before I settle on anything.....but I’m sure 10.5 is safe.
     
  22. hotrod406

    hotrod406 Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2007
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    Nevertheless, many times the gains are more than the theory would suggest. Some combinations just "work" better with more squeeze.
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    That’s true, but that should mean the extra compression is making up for a defect somewhere else. For example I’m sure the extra heat and turbulence I’m sure helps get the fuel vaporized and mixed if it wasn’t that way already.

    The sim is saying something a bit strange with mine….10.5:1 is a nice smooth curve as is 12:1, but 11:1 causes a little dip at 8750-9000….no idea why.
     
  24. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    Will Tomkins
    If that is all the gain you get from going from 8500 to 9500 - don't do it!

    Your engine is going to be hard enough pushed to hold together with all the weld stresses built into it, and those extra 1000rpm in my opinion could double or treble the chances of a big bang - and all for what? 35bhp (less than 4.5%) that you'll never be able to feel.

    The sound of the extra rpms may be sweet of course, but take it from me: an 8500rpm big V12 sounds absolutely fabulous anyway.

    You've already proved to the world that you're absolutely crazy and I'd say you might just have a chance to be CRAZY BUT RIGHT if you stick to 8500
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Newman
    Get it into Forza then rev it to 9500 after the photoshoot.
     

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