New formulation for the Enzo | FerrariChat

New formulation for the Enzo

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AEHaas, Nov 10, 2009.

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  1. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    #1 AEHaas, Nov 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,664
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    Too cool for words :)
     
  3. CRAIGF355

    CRAIGF355 Formula 3

    Nov 13, 2005
    1,019
    NJ
    Full Name:
    CRAIG ANDERSON
    I guess If it's good for the ol'Enzo it's good for any Ferrari's.
     
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Formula Junior

    I like the DR enzo formula on the label.
     
  5. TGS91

    TGS91 Rookie

    Dec 11, 2009
    1
  6. haith

    haith Rookie

    Jun 7, 2008
    47
    North Lincs, UK
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Is there only me who has serious concerns about someone using this stuff in a million £ car? What specifications does it meet? API S?,ACEA A? ??? What industry standard tests has it successfully passed? What chemistry has been used for the formulation? These are questions on the basics. As for the lubrication requirements of a highly stressed, 650 bhp piece of art like an Enzo engine - the requirements are rather more complex!

    As an expert in engine tribology, this seriously concerns me!
     
  7. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    I'm wondering about a jug of oil sitting on a painted surface on any car. If it sat on the ground and picked up a piece of grit, the paint is now damaged.
     
  8. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
    5,379
    NWA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Seriously, anyone smart enough to own a million $ car who is dumb enough to pour that light of oil into it, deserves whatever happens. Unfortunately, modern engines are so well made that it can take many miles before the damage shows up. By then some other poor sucker owns it and is stuck with a rebuild. Meanwhile the original owner can keep selling their ideas as being beneficial.
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ditto.
     
  10. ND Flack

    ND Flack Formula 3

    Sep 18, 2007
    1,051
    DC
    #10 ND Flack, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
  11. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

    May 31, 2003
    11,479
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    I would have to agree. While going green may be the hot topic of the day. The only bio based oil that I would ever use in an internal combustion engine is de gummed castor oil in my racing 2 strokes.

    Castor is proven in 2 stroke engines and has been in use for well over 40+ years. the only down side to is that it is quite dirty and requires constant maint.

    Nothing has been proven over long term testing the protection and longevity of bio based auto engine oils.
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
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    Tim Keseluk
    It's very cool having your name appear on the bottle. :)

    I can't imagine ever putting it in one of my cars.
     
  13. haith

    haith Rookie

    Jun 7, 2008
    47
    North Lincs, UK
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Please be very careful when reading the thread you mentioned. Whilst there are some reasonable arguments in some areas of the technical discussion, there are other areas that are very misleading and frankly incorrect.
     
  14. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    #14 SonomaRik, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2009
    uh, oh...deja vu [MK_E, was my next comment ;) ]
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    13,811
    The twilight zone
    Full Name:
    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    Yes........
     
  16. mikecrml

    mikecrml Rookie

    Mar 27, 2008
    33
    Carmel By The Sea, C
    Full Name:
    Mike Antoncich
    Why take a chance when oil is cheap. The damage to the motor from changing oils could not show up for years. When it happens its engine rebuild time. It happened to me with a small Abarth motor- tried to go cheap and lost the bet. Spun bearings and damage to the piston bores. Not worth it.
     
  17. vinuneuro

    vinuneuro F1 Rookie

    May 6, 2007
    2,574
    Chicago
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    Vig
    No comment on the oil, but doesn't Terry also do your UOA's? I'd want a third-party to do at least of some of the testing to verify the results.
     
  18. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    #18 AEHaas, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    10/2007:
    This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 3,000 miles on the right column (middle column as of today-2009). Both cars had 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC.

    The recommended interval is 5,000 miles, less if on the track. This is strictly off track use in town and on the highway, probably 50-50 for his car and 90 percent city for me.

    His oil was tested by: www.youroil.net, while I got the full, total evaluation from Terry Dyson at www.dysonanalysis.com.

    7/2009:
    Another 1,400 miles on the Enzo now with 4,400 miles, still not broken in fully. When I took out the GC I put in 0W-30 RLI. This is what we are testing here today. Again, tested by Dyson. Remember that his testing counts larger particles as well as all the smaller ones so other labs may give false lower values.

    My driving has been exclusively in town and most often back and forth from Home Depot for small items. Just before this sample was taken we drove to the Ferrari dealership in Tampa to test drive the new Ferrari California. Going there and back took a total of 2.5 hours or so and about half of the way back it rained (very hard).

    So the fuel dilution was probably much higher before this short trip. At no time has the oil temperature in this engine gotten above 180 F. This oil has been in for nearly two years but Terry Dyson says I should just keep going (and going and going).

    What is particularly interesting is that I put in 0W-30 RLI and the viscosity (with probably even a lesser dilution after this trip) is in the 20 grade area now. Remember that a 60 grade oil is spec’ed.
    ................................................................................................................

    Again, all 3 tests were done with 1,400 miles on each oil sample, The first column (Shell) is my neighbor's car with a total of about 9,000 miles on the car but 1,400 miles on this oils sample. The GC column was my car with Castrol 0W-30 and the last column was the vegetable based RLI oil.

    Terry Dyson does my testing and is a formulating consultant.

    _____________Shell..GC...RLI
    Iron___________ 32...11...7
    Chromium ______<1...0....1
    Nickel ___*_______ 2...1....0
    Aluminum ______ 11...3....2
    lead ___________ 16...0....3
    Copper _________25...8....4
    Tin ____________<1...0....0
    Silver _________<.1....0....0
    Titanium _______<1....0....0
    Silicon _________ 7...3....4
    Boron __________ 1...3....16
    Sodium _________ 8...3....10
    Potassium ______<10...0....0
    Molybdenum ____ <5....1....2
    Phosphorus ___1026..935...1032
    Zinc ________ 1135..1228..1055
    Calcium _____ 1454..1671..2108
    Barium _______ <10....0....2
    Magnesium ___1219...526..53
    Antimony _____<30...0....265
    Vanadium ______<1...0....0
    Fuel %Vol _____<1...1.2...1.3
    Flash_______not done..335..320
    Abs Oxid ______ 34...10...127
    Abs Nitr _______ 11...8....8
    Wtr %vol ______<0.1...KF=247....KF=1063 &#8220;a little damp, but not bad&#8221;
    Vis CS 100C __ 15.8...11.8...8.6
    Vic CS 40C___not done...66...44
    SAE Grade _____40....30....20
    Gly test ______NEG...0.37 &#8220;not antifreeze&#8221;....0
    TBN _________not done...7.9....5.9
    Visc Index_____not done..154...177
    Soot__________not done...0...0.01

    aehaas

    PS, William Garmier, the formulator at RLI, retested the last oil sample (new draw of fluid) and got the same results.
     
  19. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,221
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
    I've gone to Home Depot in a Miura, I'll bet the Enzo makes quite a hit. ;)
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Once again this doesn't impress me.

    Unlike these two cars mine gets used a lot harder.

    P 4/5 now has about 7.5K miles 2K of which at least were very hard/track miles including sustained High speed Track testing. In Bahrain we ran lap after lap and the oil warmed to just under the red line as the oil coolers silted up.

    Do you think your oil would be sutible for my use?

    How about Ferrari? They reccomend your oil? How about anyone but you? I have never seen a post from anyone reccomending your oil as sutible for Ferrari or other high performance car. Please show me any reccomendations stating that your oil is suitable for use in a high performace vehicle. More importantely why should anyone use your oil? I've driven Exotic Cars and Race Cars over 500K miles, many of which were hard ones, with reccomended oil and have never had an oil related issue.
     
  21. mseals

    mseals Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 9, 2007
    24,468
    Kuwait
    Full Name:
    Mike Seals
    I think that pretty much says it all.

    Mike in Kuwait
     
  22. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    #22 AEHaas, Dec 17, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2009
    One must look at the test results. We are comparing two similar cars driven exactly the same way in the same location. One car is more broken in so should show less wear. By the numbers alone one Enzo has over 5 times the wear rate using the 10W-60 OEM Shell compared to the RLI in a car not broken in. This car should have higher numbers but is actually much lower.

    In addition, my testing lab counts not only small, dissolved particles, but also large particles. I examine the filter elements myself for even larger particles. My lab can show several fold more wear numbers if wear was occurring. This suggests that the other Enzo may have 6 - 10+ more wear using the OEM oil than my car. In any event, his wear is still low, appropriate for the car and use.

    The conclusion for me is that perhaps running a premium, thinner oil, may result in less wear for those few of us who seldom or never track our car and burn rubber only on mundane public roads.

    aehaas

    PS I send all my test results to Ferrari. That is all I can say about that.
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Ali

    If you use your oil in a new Ferrari and the engine suffers a failure will Ferrari cover the damage under their warrantee?

    Your Oil is labeled:

    "Dr. Haas's Enzo Formula" Should Enzo owners consider it safe to use? Is there any warranty?

    Is the disclaimer you posted here anywhere on the label of your oil?

    "The conclusion for me is that perhaps running a premium, thinner oil, may result in less wear for those few of us who seldom or never track our car and burn rubber only on mundane public roads."
     
  24. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    If you study the oil test results further you will see that after only 1,400 miles of town/highway, non-track use, the Shell oil is only a 40 grade fluid now. And this is with slightly less fuel dilution than with my oil. I have found this trend to be typical of all Ferrari OEM Shell oils. The 5W-40 used in many other cars had thinned into the 20 and 30 grade range. Yup, I go around stealing oil samples from others and send them off for oil analysis at my own cost just to get data points. I do send the results to FNA as well.

    I also find the OEM Shell oils to be very volatile. People are always adding oil to their engines. It always ends up in the exhaust and hurts the catalytic converters for sure. Any other oils that I have used in several Ferraris never used a drop of oil (after dropping the OEM oil). Again, this is with the use of thinner oils, and oils that have better characteristics by my point of view.

    Let us go back. The OEM Ferrari recommended Enzo oil is a 40 grade now, after non intensive use. It is supposed to be a 60 grade oil. How much further will it thin with more fuel dilution, with harder use? Many would say then that a more shear stable 40 grade oil is better from the start rather than using a very shear unstable oil(s). Who knows, it may be that all those complaining about my thin oil may in fact be running oils in the same grade right now.

    I always liked Shell oils in the past but recently I hate to say it but I would not use them in my cars. The volatility is my issue. From another point of view, I think there is a Shell article that shows better ring seal using thinner oils.

    aehaas
     
  25. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,300
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    Dr Haas, whilst I applaud the use of a bio-oil in your car, I hope you are gentleman enough to let us know what sound the engine made on its' first proper use, with everything hot and the engine under full load near red-line, just before throwing a rod.

    If you clocked up 1400 miles driving up and down to Home Depot, there is something amiss with the way you draft your shopping lists, even with the limted load-carrying capabilities of an Enzo.

    I also need to admit that I am totally stupefied by the fact that someone can actually purchase a car like an Enzo and never leave the city limits with it. It's like having a million Dollar race horse for a house pet.
     

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