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This is why...

Discussion in '348/355' started by James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010.

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  1. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #1 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    In New Zealand it is a requirement to have a Warrant of fitness issued every 6 months (every year for cars under 5 years of age) There are many mechanics and testing agents around that can issue this WOF. I choose to take the 355 back to the (only) factory authorised Ferrari for the WOF, there are a number of reasons why I do this, one of whith the the guys there know what they are looking at when it comes to our cars. They are the best part of a 200 mile journey for a 45 minute check over, seems like a long way to go for such a simple check.

    Well, turns out it is well worth the extra distance and time.

    On Friday I had a WOF done on my car, while it was up on the hoist we noticed an oil leak (not a WOF issue) but we investigated it and found it was coming from one of the hose unions on the gearbox oil pump. We decided to try to just nip it up a bit and see if the leak stopped but when a spanner was put on there was no resistance so it became clear that there was some issue, the spanner turned with relative ease feeling like thread was stripping. So we decided to remove the bolt and investigate further....what we found was the bolt had cracked and was literally within millimeters of failing completely. If that had happened the oil pump would have pumped all the gearbox oil out and with no warning lights to tell me what was happening total gearbox failure would have been inevitable...

    We fitted a new bolt, checked the oil level and checked the union again after a run up the road, all is well.

    This is why I take it to the people who know these cars, a run of the mill mechanic may have overlooked the oil leak as it was very minor and just kept going with the WOF.
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  2. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    #2 Spasso, Jan 10, 2010
    Which leads me to wonder, why was it cracked?
    It's not like it takes a beating from road shock like suspension bits do.
     
  3. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #3 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
    Agreed, I would think it was overtightened at some point....seems to be the only logical reason.
     
  4. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 PAP 348, Jan 10, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
    Phew, VERY lucky to have caught that James!!!!!! :D:D
     
  5. Vegas-Guy

    Vegas-Guy Formula 3

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    #5 Vegas-Guy, Jan 10, 2010
    Wow nice catch..:) could have been really bad...:(
     
  6. rbellezza

    rbellezza F1 Rookie

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    #6 rbellezza, Jan 10, 2010


    Good catch and .... no cats !
     
  7. saw1998

    saw1998 F1 Veteran

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    #7 saw1998, Jan 10, 2010
    +1. I doubt that banjo fitting has been touched since it was installed at the factory. Probably someone who had a little too much vino at lunch. The same type of banjo fittings on my 308s and 328 were over-torqued by over 100% when I removed (and replaced) them.

    I am so glad you caught that, James. It would have been catastrophic if it had completely broken. OUCH!
     
  8. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #8 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
    Although it looks like brass that bolt is alloy. Not sure why Ferrari choose to use a alloy bolt in that location?

    Brass or steel would have been a better choice IMO.
     
  9. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    #9 Spasso, Jan 10, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
    I'M NOT AN EXPERT

    I am thinking alloy is the proper choice because it is a tension application, creating constant compression on the banjo. I would also think a soft metal bolt in that application would stretch with repeated heating and cooling cycles of the oil and surrounding structure.

    In the case of the high pressure banjo fittings on my fuel pumps, it's the copper washers that do the sealing.
     
  10. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 wax, Jan 10, 2010
    Redefines "home and hosed", doesn't it?
     
  11. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

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    #11 eulk328, Jan 10, 2010
    I would think the sealing washers would have the same sealing function as on the fuel pump fittings you mention.

    I wonder if the threaded part of the banjo bolt could have bottomed out on something because of incorrect washers that were too thin (or missing washers).


     
  12. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #12 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
    This union has copper washers both top and bottom....

    This is interesting, never thought about the heat cycle the bolt will go through....Steel is fine for a sump plug, copper washer is the seal. The sump plug is exposed to the same environment heat wise.

    Has the choice to use alloy got something to do with the combination of heat and pressure the bolt is subjected to?
     
  13. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #13 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
    Both washers were present, the thread in the casing is long and the bolt would not be able to bottom out....we checked this with the depth gauge to make sure.
     
  14. Jamie H

    Jamie H Formula 3
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    #14 Jamie H, Jan 10, 2010
    Wow !! Might also be a good day to purchase a lottery ticket !!
     
  15. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 wax, Jan 10, 2010
  16. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #16 James-NZ, Jan 10, 2010
  17. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 wax, Jan 10, 2010
    Send 'Napolis a PM with link to this thread and see what he thinks. He's learned a thing or two and has shared more...
     
  18. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 PAP 348, Jan 11, 2010
    You guys are ALL thinking too hard........
















































    They used an alloy banjo fitting there to save weight. :eek::eek:
     
  19. saw1998

    saw1998 F1 Veteran

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    #19 saw1998, Jan 11, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2010
    In my 308s and 328, I replaced my banjo-type fitting in the oil system with AN fitting and Aeroquip Teflon-lined braided hoses. Simple, not too expensive and much better sealing. Note that Ferrari went to these type of fitting in the fuel system in the F355 (and 348??).

    At my 30K major everything that can be, will be replaced with items from Dave Helm's Scuderia Rampante Innovations.
     
  20. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

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    #20 sambomydog, Jan 11, 2010
    First of all good catch:)
    But did you never notice the drips/pool of oil under your car at anytime? Do you never check under your car at all anyway?
     
  21. mseals

    mseals Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 mseals, Jan 11, 2010
    It may have leaked/dripped only when driving, and the oil was hot with positive crankcase ventilation... seems like it with a 'dry sump' system...

    But, hell, what do I know? Nothin'!

    Mike in Kuwait
     
  22. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

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    #22 sambomydog, Jan 11, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2010
    Not at all Mike, its a valid point mate:)

    Just that with my self i hope nothing goes unnoticed under my car. In the UK we have the same types of tests called the MOT which the car is tested every year. I dont wait until the MOT to get under there. But not all work on there cars like i do, i understand that.
    Now that James has pointed out this potential problem, i shall be under there checking the bolt/union by tomorrow:)
     
  23. mseals

    mseals Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 mseals, Jan 11, 2010
    thanks for that...

    Maybe someone should post the torque specs... especially if over torquing will cause that...!

    Mike in Kuwait
     
  24. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

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    #24 James-NZ, Jan 11, 2010
    The leak was very minor, my car parks in the same spot and each time it is moved I check the floor for drips of any sort, it has never dripped anything other than aircon condensation.

    This leak was not enough to drip oil on the ground but the bottom of the gearbox was wet...

    Hi Mike :D *waves*

    This is the gearbox oil system, not the engine. Hence the concern with no warning light to tell the driver the gearbox oil pressure has dropped, the first warning the driver would get would be the sound of seizing gears....
     
  25. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #25 AceMaster, Jan 11, 2010
    Good catch James, the timing couldn't have been better. Did you notice how much oil it was leaking, and approx when the leak started? Did the leak get worse, or was it constant?
     
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