Raftis purchased that car too - from the UK dealer Duncan Hamilton in early 2005, and sent it direct to the factory to have it resprayed in the traditional orange. He contacted me for reference photos of the F1 LM interior hoping that the factory would finish the car in a similar manner, which apparently they will not so as to preserve some exclusivity on the LMs. The work on #16R completed in June and the car was in Australia through about Nov/Dec of that year before finding a new owner in the UK, where it has been since. If you are familiar with the 5th Gear clip where Tiff Needel compares the F1 to the Enzo, this was that same car. Here's a few images of it taken in Woking, June 10th 2005 when it was finished. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Brilliant, thanks. Question: A lot of the literature regarding the 5 LMs (non XP1 LM) says that they were all Papaya Orange, but as we know the Brunei cars were different (at least one or two). Do you know what the 5 LM colour schemes are made up of?
This is a question that had frustrated us for many years, but the answers are finally pretty clear. XP1 LM - Papaya Orange - UK (prototype) LM1 - Black + Graphics - Brunei LM2 - Papaya Orange - Japan LM3 - Papaya Orange - UK to USA LM4 - Black + Graphics - Brunei LM5 - Papaya Orange - Brunei For the longest time the so called "Black LM's" were just a rumor as no photographic proof of their existence was available. In October of 2005, a contact sent me a link to the website of Italian artist Maurizio Corbi noting that I'd find a drawing there depicting one of the Black LMs. Sure enough, when I contacted Maurizio he informed me that he had done the drawing in 1996 while in Brunei of this very special F1. While not a photograph - his confirmation that the drawing depicted a real car in the Brunei collection was the final piece of evidence that we'd been looking for and I've attached it below. In July of 2008, someone finally stumbled on photographic proof that had been right under our noses (essentially) since July 17th 1996. It was in an issue of Autoweek magazine where they did an article on the McLaren - and pictured right in the middle of a page was a real photo of LM1 being assembled at the factory. I have a feeling that McLaren would have probably preferred that image never went to print, and that may be one of the reasons why they now require editorial review in advance of printing anything shot inside the factory. Now I didn't own a copy of the magazine, but the guy who finally produced the scan of the page had owned it since the date it was printed and had just never gone back to look through it until that point. It wasn't long after that, a user from PistonHeads was going through his old photo collection and shared images from the McLaren factory taken in 1996. In his set of photos were two more images of a black LM completed and ready for delivery to Brunei. In December 2008 I was allowed to see but not keep two great photos of a black LM taken in Brunei. They were clean crisp shots of the car complete and on the ground. Hopefully one day they will be released for all to see as well. Now I have been told by one source that the second Black LM is identical to the first, except the blue section of the stripe graphics is red on LM4. However, there's been no proof of that so far in all the images I have seen, and he's the only source who seemed to recall that so that is the one piece that kind of remains a mystery. Late last year confirmation came from a source who was able to see most of the collection in Brunei that both Black LMs are still there, along with the single orange one they ordered. They also have GTR #09R finished to look identical to GTR #01R that won LeMans, the black F1 GT longtail road car (54F1GT) and one grey and one blue F1 road car, which would be chassis #002 & #008 respectively. As far as I am concerned that is still 7 too many F1s in Brunei, but at least according to him the only issue with the cars was that the GTR was sitting on flat tires, which is understandable with race rubber which does not hold air as well. I won't bother with photos of the orange ones - most people here can picture those in their sleep. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Question that puzzles a lot, why being so secretive about Brunei cars? Why McLaren doesn't release the data and why you didn't have the right to publish the pictures?
McLaren have always tried their best to keep their F1 owners a secret. They won't answer specific questions about owners, won't provide any names, when a car is in for service number plates are removed and the cars are not referred to as "Ralph Lauren's F1" or anything like that. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that McLaren won't even tell current F1 owners what the chain of custody was for their own cars if they have been passed through many different hands. They feel this is important to protect client confidentiality, and frankly in the early years uncovering these "secrets" was one of the drivers for my efforts. People always want to know what they "shouldn't" and through our efforts we've come a long way. Slowly but surely we enthusiasts are gathering this information on our own and the list of 'unknowns' as far as original owner is getting smaller and smaller. Details on new owners when a car changes hands is often quick to be discovered as well thanks to this internet thing we're all using right now. There are 30 F1s out of the 64 road cars where I can't tell you the original owner's name. Of those 30, we do know where 16 of them were original located at least as far as the country, and 6 of those cars went to Japan which is always a difficult place to get information from. Moving on to present day knowledge, there are just 4 chassis that we know nothing about the ownership history of - those are #049, #052, #057 and #066 in case you happen to see any of them, or in case you are looking for an F1 chassis number that you'd like to pretend belongs to you. Besides those 4, there are 18 F1s where the current owner's name is not known, however, 14 of those cars have a current known location. I'd like to say that we'd be helped in our quest to gather this info by people not selling the cars, as a handful do change hands each year, but in reality often the only time they will 'appear' anywhere is when they are listed for sale in some public fashion, or a new owner takes possession. Going back to your original questions: As for Brunei - that country is an interesting one and they've always wanted to keep info about the royal collection as secretive as possible. The mechanics who were dispatched to Brunei to support the collection from many different manufacturers all had to sign extensive non-disclosure agreements in order to work there. Photos were not allowed, though thankfully some have snuck out. Truthfully we might still not know exactly which F1s were ever in Brunei if the list of cars kept at Garage #5 had not been released here at FerrariChat a few years back. On your question about publishing photos - I assume you are asking about the two I saw in December 2008 that I was not allowed to keep. Basically the person who took them didn't mind me seeing them as further proof of the Black LMs, but at the time did not wish for them to be widely circulated. Perhaps his opinion will change over time? While I would certainly prefer that anything and everything McLaren F1 related be shared with the world, I have to respect his wishes with his own content and am just thankful I got to see them ever so briefly. >8^) ER
Thanks Peloton. It looks like the Black Brunei LM has a raw carbon front in one of those pictures? Or is it just the photo?
Before the cars left the factory McLaren would apply a protective plastic coating for transport to ensure they arrived in perfect condition. I think that's what you are seeing. Here's a shot of the Cobalt Blue chassis #008 preparing to leave the factory, followed by the only image that exists of it in Brunei so you can see the comparison. In case you were only asking about the front splitter (spoiler), yes - those are always bare carbon from what I have seen. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I've kept only a few issues of various car mags over the years and one is an Autoweek with a F1 on the cover. Thought it might be the above mentioned issue...I dug a bit and found it...May 10, 1999...cover tag line "Ultimate Car, Ultimate Service Where you go when your McLaren F1 needs a new $17,600 muffler" FYI, May '99 cover shows a F1 with plate "K8 MCL".
Scans of that Autoweek were recently shared - its not one I happen to have a physical copy of, but looks like a keeper. 'K8 MCL' was chassis XP5 - the 5th and final F1 road car prototype which was used by McLaren as their primary demonstrator, as well as a marketing/promotional car, and was also the F1 used to set the top speed record at VW's Ehra Lessien test track in Germany in 1998. It wore that plate throughout its life with McLaren, which may have ended in Sept of 2009 when I believe it was finally sold. >8^) ER
Guess I missed it. Found this in the same issue: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=139335635
Sorry - not shared here, but elsewhere on the web in our McLaren F1 forum. If anyone is interested in really digging into the subject of the F1, look it up on AutomotiveForums.com. >8^) ER
Guess I didn't waste my time then scanning... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'm not at all interested in who is the owner of which car, at the end of the day it's like breaking privacy kind of, to answer the first few paragraphs you wrote. I hardly understand the secrecy about the (not so) recent past of certain vehicles though. Especially if the car ran in limited series like the McF1. I perfectly understand why prototypes are kept secret, even after the release of a car in order to protect technology and whatnot patents that weren't used on the production version of a vehicle, for example. But that's no news that RR/Bentley was saved by Brunei in the 1990s, nor that Ferrari did more than 400 Enzos. I don't see the problem of having these infos released in public, it can't drop the value of a F Enzo anyway, and there have been made some great pieces of machinery for Brunei that it would be great to have information on...
There are differing opinions on the ownership information. In some ways it is a point of contention, but most of the owners of these cars are already public individuals and choose to make known their ownership of the cars by showing them at events or allowing their use in articles or videos. There are some owners names that have been shared in secret with me, and those I do not publish. There's also one F1 owner who I had the good fortune to meet and he wishes to remain anonymous, and so far after four years he has done just that. I look at the ownership info as part of the history of the car though. In 20 or 30 years this data will be looked upon then in the same way people discuss classic Ferraris and all of the hands they may have passed through. Now I do not advocate anyone doing things that are unscrupulous to obtain this info, nor do I think anyone should be scaling fences or anything of the sort to get to see an F1 (it has happened ). As for production numbers of the F1s - that is no secret at all. In total there were 106 cars produced of varying types. McLaren have rebuilt some that were heavily damaged, but they've not exceeded that number with any additional cars the way Ferrari is known to do with their 'specials.' I think the story of the Brunei collection is a pretty sad one. In my younger years when I first heard of the collection I thought it was the most fantastic idea. Now I see the fact that these cars aren't used and are kept from the public eye to be a real disappointment. In my opinion the entire collection belongs to the people of Brunei, not just the Royal Family who spent the money, but that's not necessarily how the politics and financial control of their country works. Slowly cars have started to leave Brunei, and many of their custom 1-offs have been exposed to the world as a result, but they still are not moving out at the pace I'd like to see them go. >8^) ER
I have one more question if you don't mind - Back when I lived in Singapore, I heard rumours that there was a McLaren F1 kept strictly under cover at a car dealer there, I think it was Malayan Motors whom deal in Bentleys and Jaguars. I heard stories that it was either chassis #004 or #021, and supposedly red in colour. Someone also told me that this particular car used to be privately owned and was actually kept inside someones house purely as an ornamental display. Can you help me with it?
Your details are spot on and it is still there today. Chassis #004 went to Brunei originally, so this one in Singapore is #021. From someone who saw the car recently, the level of care it has received has not been good as it sits there at Malayan Motors collecting dust now. There was a small set of photos that appeared on Flickr of this car in September 2009, but the photographer made them 'private' shortly thereafter, and asked me not to share them with anyone. I'm not sure how many others managed to get their hands on them, but they were mostly closeup detail shots that made it pretty clear the car has not been detailed in quite some time. For a while, the car was parked outside in covered parking, and kept under a car cover as well, with the owner's Jaguar XJ220 in the next space over. These more recent shots appeared to have been taken inside a building. >8^) ER
What a shame, just sitting there collecting dust I've heard of that Jag XJ220 and seen a couple of very blurry pictures of the back of it under cover, with the F1 out of the shot but meant to be beside it. Do you know who owns either? I've read that it is a Malaysian prince, but I am not sure
No - I have never been given any more detail than what you shared. I was told that whoever it is has or had a very impressive collection of cars in addition to that pair. I wonder if the 140% import tariff imposed by the Malaysian government plays any role in the fact that he just keeps the car in storage? >8^) ER
Erik, Did you read the last page of the March 2010 Car and Driver with Ron Dennis regarding the McLaren F1? Interesting comment about not building the cars for profit motives.
Nope - missed that one but now that I know to look for it... Actually I need to go out and get my copy of Feb Octane with Rowan Atkinson's F1/Veyron comparison, so when I do I'll look for the C&D too. >8^) ER
Do you still post there? I haven't been active on that board in over six years. Interesting, I always thought all LMs were papaya.
5,567 posts since Feb 2003 Pus I've been the almost useless moderator of the McLaren forums there for about the past 4 years I guess? I say 'almost useless', as we rarely have any issues in need of moderation - mostly just reposts that get pointed to the original thread. It's just a great group of people dedicated to collecting and discussing just about everything F1-related that there is. A few of the regulars from there post here as well, like SefacHotRodder and gregh (mini magic & hurstg01 over there). = = = = = Not sure if Hydra GT/Steve is still looking in on this discussion, but this afternoon on Flickr I found a set of photos taken probably 10 years ago of some of Gerd Petrik's car collection. In it are 8 shots of McLaren F1 #045, which is the car I believe his Ameritech bumper parts match up with that we discussed in post #481. Here's the link to that gallery: Gerd's Exotic Cars (Set) I said this in my comment to the photographer on one of the shots, but I really love it when people pull old photos out of their shoeboxes or desk drawers and share them with the rest of us. >8^) ER
I think the story of the Brunei collection is a pretty sad one. In my younger years when I first heard of the collection I thought it was the most fantastic idea. Now I see the fact that these cars aren't used and are kept from the public eye to be a real disappointment. In my opinion the entire collection belongs to the people of Brunei, not just the Royal Family who spent the money, but that's not necessarily how the politics and financial control of their country works. Slowly cars have started to leave Brunei, and many of their custom 1-offs have been exposed to the world as a result, but they still are not moving out at the pace I'd like to see them go. As someone who deals in business quite a bit with Malaysia and these parts, your spot on. Actually the way some of these cars are treated is an absolute disgrace, I don't even understand why they have purchased them to begin with except for the Sultan's brother who was an enthusiast and later had some issues with the family over his Foreign Investments. These guys were basically buying cars it seemed like to me, for the sake of it, but were never really car guys. Just my take.
Have you ever had the pleasure of reading the article on Prince Jefri from FHM that starts out with the headline: "This man blew $28 Billion ...on ****e!"? If not, I'd be glad to share the scans of it - quite a story. Speaking of magazines, my local BORDER's still had the January issue of Octane out tonight, and there wasn't any sign of a single Car&Driver, old or new, even though they had March issues of Road&Track and Automobile available. Guess I will give it a week or so. >8^) ER
I just got mine friday not that big. I was wishing for more shots and a long story but I'll take what I can get with the Mclaren F1.
