360 F1 Hydraulic Pump Relay Pictures (inside)

My approach to reparing this pump - is to adapt a totally new motor from anothe unit, like an ABS or a hydraulic steering pump. There are many different electrical pumps that can be coupled to this particular pump head unit. I have already found an almost identical substitute, that can be purchased for less than $300 !!! I will make this happen!

 

After installing the new replacement pump, I decided to find out the reason to why my old pump got shorted and why it had repeatedly blown the 30 Amps fuse? This is what I have done and seen:
1) Used pliers to squeeze the crimps and remove the metallic cover with a permanent magnet fixed inside (shown on Pic.4).
2) Pics.1, 2, &3 show dirt from the magnet stuck on the surface of the rotor
3) Pic.4 shows how much dirt (some kind of a greasy stuff mixed with shavings from the ferrite type of magnet, which functions as a stator. My suspicion is that this ferrite-rich dirt was causing the short to the wires on the base plate of the motor shown in Pics.5,6&7.
4) In Pics.5&6, yellow arrows indicate the location of exposed wires carrying 12V that got shorted by the accumulated ferromagnetic material-rich grease deposits (which is a fairly good conductor of electricity, as I checked with an Ohm-meter). These wires carry 12V to two small inductive coils (one on each side), as seen on the top side of Pic.6. (red arrow in the left top quarter) .
5) In Pic. 6, in the center I inserted a section of a plastic tube from a Q-tip to hold two brushes opposite to each other (indicated by a blue arrow); these brushes are pushed towards the center by small springs (indicated by a green arrow).
6) Pic.7 shows some wire corrosion and deposition of that ferromagnet-rich greasy deposit on one of the coils. It is noteworthy, that these coils are surrounded by a tubular enclosure made from the same plastic as the base of this contraption. The yellow arrow indicates the location of unprotected wire.
7) Pic.8 shows the rotor after clean-up. I used throttle body cleaner, because it contains alcohols of different molecular size capable of dissolution of very sticky and greasy materials (methanol, propanol, butanol, and xylene). After having literally soaked the rotor in that solution, I dried it on paper towels and used a hot hair-dryer / blower to dry the rotor. I left it overnight in the garage just to make sure that the cleaning solution will evaporate completely. Note, that the axel on the end which connects with the pump head is flattened (on the left side of the picture). Also, I cleaned the insides of the metal cover housing the ferromagnetic stator. There was so much gunk inside - just unbelievable !!!
8) The hardest part is to insert the rotor between those brushes back into the hydraulic pump head. As shown on Pic.9, I managed to do this using two L-shaped steel wire retainers to hold those brushes apart. By slowly rotating the rotor, the flattened end of the axel will slide into the corresponding groove in the rotating part inside the pump head.
9) Placing the metal cover with the magnet inside – is a real challenge. As shown on Pic. 10, I managed to accomplish this. It took me about 10 min - more thinking than actually doing anything. When placing the magnet-containing metal cover, the magnet has a tendency to pull the rotor out of its’ place and those brushes shut together, preventing the rotor from going back (but you wont see it unless you disassemble it again – there is no other choice). So, placing the rotor inside the metal cover (inside the magnetic stator) first, and then carefully repeating the procedure of inserting it into the pump head between the brushes – is a real challenge, because most of the time you don’t see what you are doing – mostly feeling the way… (wow, this sounds very philosophical…!).
10) One has to align very accurately those small plates on the edge of the metal cover, which should match perfectly with the slits in the aluminum base. These are indicated with red arrows in Pics.10&11.
11) Finally, I tested the motor using my simple contraptioin consisting of a 12V, 8 Amps/h battery (from the gate opener) and a pair of two wires with flat connectors. The pump appers to work perfectly well, wires don’t heat up at all, there is no short by Ohm-meter … In other words – the pump is repaired !!!
12) Here is a YouTube Link demonstrating this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtjPRqKFR8k
So, my Ferraristi colleagues, if you want me to repair your pump – you let me know.
Juri.
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Scary stuff Does the 6-speed tranny also have these sensors that would prevent you from driving the car? I think I know the answer to this question but just wanted to confirm it. I might be in the market soon for a 360 or a 430, but this F1 tranny kind of scares me. At least this thread shows some very good pointers on how to repair it in case you do encounter issues. These steps should be added to the sticky, if it hasn't already!

 

I dont know about 360-s with a manual 6-speed gearbox, but it is logical that those cars also have similar sensors as with F1 gearbox to feed information to ECU.

 

Great work and write up. I really thank you for taking the time to do all this F1 pump investigation. It sounds like you found a solution to buying new pump while you were at it!

 

There is an alternative source for the Ferrari 360 F1 transmission hydraulic pump, which is the Selspeed hydraulic pump for AlfaRomeo 145, 147, and 156 models, which is exactly the same unit, with the same electrical connector (see the attached diagram). however, I dont know where to order it from.

On AlfaRomeo 156, this unit consists of a gear pump of approx. 0.25 cm3 /rev, drawn by a joint from a 12V d.c. electric motor through a relay controlled by the control unit CFC 208F.&#8232;The electric pump is activated when the accumulated pressure is < 45 bar and it switches off when the accumulated pressure is > 55 bar.&#8232;The electric motor and the pump are fastened to each other with screws by a flange.&#8232;There are two threaded holes for intake (I) and delivery (U), that are connected to the oil tank and the user respectively by pipes with flexible unions.&#8232;The hydraulic tank, fitted with a filter, has a capacity of approx. 0.5 I.

There is yet another alternative, which I cannot reveal yet, because I am in the process of ordering and testing it on my car. That pump unit will cost about $600 if it will fit. Will inform our community posted once I test it...
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good work and persistance...but also u could have used a battery from cordless drill which would have worked.

 

Outstanding work!! (And hard to believe someone wants about $1700 for that pump alone). Or better put, could you even imagine now (knowing what you know) shelling out 3K for that to be replaced.

Again, outstanding work!

 

Yeh,,, it's hard to agree with price of this small piece of cr.r.r.ap ... it is made with such an archaic technology and materials ! This unit price should be $200-$300 max !!!
Lessons learned:

1) Dont pay for the new pump $1360! it's not worth it!

2) There is nothing in this pump that can not be repaired! Even the wires can be rewound by any electrical motor shop. There are no complicated zig-zag or square patterns used with flat wire windings on some other advanced small electric motors - nothing like this, zilch, nada!

3) it is the stator shavings that cause the problem (shorting out of the naked electical wires inside the base) when combined with the sealer material that the manufacturer uses between the base of the motor and the metal cover for hermetization (or waterproofing).

4) There are several alternative pumps or motors that can be used as equally or even better (more reliably) for this particular application. The cost of parts will be <$600.

Finally,

IF YOU HAVE A BURNT F1 PUMP YOU CAN SEND IT TO ME AND I WILL TRY TO REPAIR IT.

JG

 

And with your instructions (clearly the best I've seen so far), and are 1/2 decent with tools it's not a bad job at all. Let alone the pump is in a nice position for access.

When it happened to me (just had 1000 miles on the car and owned for 1month) it was
$1668 for the pump, $111 for a new relay, $2 fuse.......and the $375 towing bill. The dealer covered the labor, so my little adventure was $2300 in total w/o labor cost.

In retrospect...... I would have gone this route without hesitation. (So a great post for those that value the $$).

 

u are correct...i believe if u have persistance and some knowledge you can easily get it repaired or just go to a supplier if u look here http://www.thomasnet.com/ you can usually find whatever u want.

 

As a potential owner, trying to decide the merits of an F1 vs 6spd... I really appreciate this. Thanks for an incredibly informative and detailed post.

 

Interestingly, all other cars that use this particular pump manufactured by Denso-Marelli in Italy have the same problem, including Lancia, Fiat, AlfaRomeo, and even ..... BMW !!! Yes, some Bimers also are equipped with a SMG (Sequential Manual Gear) system which uses the very same faulty pump and those owners pay in excess of $3600 to repair the whole unit!

Therefore, the most frequent reaction of prospective byers of 360 Ferraris is quite a negative one - too much trouble with the F1 pump, relay, TCU, exhuberant and unjustified cost of repairs, etc.

However, I would like to point out that:
1) If one knows how to diagnose the problem (which is very easy - it shows it on the dash) and knows where to get parts at much lower price (like less than $600 for an F1 hydraulic pump, and $58 for a pump relay), and follows simple instructions for repairs - then, obviously, the F1 - is the way to go!
2) If one has a lot of money and spending $5K for pump repair at the dealers' is considered a pocket change - then, of course, F1 is the way to go.
3) If one is not blessed with millions of $$$ and would rather use an excuse that "real man drives a stick shift" - then get a 6 speed stick shift version and enjoy the manual shift.

Manually shifting cars are not without problems either. All Ferraris are very capricious in many other ways. It is really depends on what is that thing about the car that puts a smile on your face...

When they tell me that I am crazy to use my 360F1 Spider as a daily driver, because I depreciate the value of this car, I respond that they are wrong and that I "appreciate" the value of this car every time I drive it with my top down!

That is what puts a smile on my face!
"C'est la vie"
"Memento mori !!!"

 

Well said my friend.

 

You are the MAN!!!!!
I've f360 f1 fauil of shift-learning at this moment.
The vehicle error showns shifting 1st and 2nd,R gear only.can't shift-up from 2nd to 3th gear.also error with up-shift with 3th-4th and 4th-5th,5th-6th gear.
But down-shift with all gears were perfact.

The trans light ON while replaced f1 T/O bearing and f1 clutch sensor by myself.goto dealership and said"the self-learning can't process because of the low F1 hydraulic while trans system up-shift 2nd into 3th gear and leak hydraulic in f1 system."

I checked all pipe and sensor but nothing could find out the leak.the sound while opening driver's door was OK.f1 pump realy replaced,bleeding system 4 times already,

I've used f1 pump with burned condition and want to repair it.
PM me your contact detail plz...

Thanks

 

Hi KZSPORT, I sent you the contact info in a PM.

After reading your post, which sounded very similar with what I had experienced with my car, I would like to ask you the following: Before the system deteriorated to the point you are describing, the typical symptom should have been - that when up-shifting it would suddenly drop into "N", right?

There are several reasons to this symptom, including (but not limited to):

1) the F1 pump is on a "death row" and will burn soon, but the fuse should burn first.
replace the F1 pump and relay; bleed the whole system (both on the distributor end and transmission end); repeat diagnostic procedures using the SDIII tester or a Skill Tester ST5 diagnostic tool and re-establish the "kissing point".

2) the clutch is getting worn out:
Solution - replace the clutch. Note, that the %wear of the cluth that the diagnostic programs read from the transmission TCU is relative to whatever has been set prior to this reading. If somebody had erased the real information and established the current % at 100% (totally new clutch), then whatever you will read of the TCU will be relative to that 100%. This means that if somebody whants to sell you a "lemon" claiming that the clutch was replaced and is almost 100% new, this is not necessarily true and later you will never know untill you change the clutch to a new one again.

3) there is air in the hydraulic power distributor unit or in the gear shifting system down in the transmission unit.
Solution - bleed the whole system on both ends (power distributor, which is next to the F1 pump, and transmission end)

4) clutch sensor is malfunctioning or damaged and can not establish a proper "kissing point"
Replace the sensor, but this should be done last and only if the sensor is really broken. The diagnostic system can not differentiate which compponents are at fault and repair shops tell you that several parts should be replaced, when you may only need to perform proper bleeding procedures...

These are only a couple of pointers I learned from different sources while dealing with this problem.

 

Hey bud
I'm very appreciate for your guide of cause of the malfunction.
I'll check my vehicle by your list ASAP and post what failure results I find out.

Thanks
KZ.

 

Hi buddy
I've drove my f360 on yesterday and another issue come with...When cold engine shift-gear smooth but hot engine f1 system doesn't accept shift-gear up or down while I stop on street for student after school...In few secend(5-10 sec)shift-gear engaged and driving but shifting feel too strong ...and noisy with.
I'll recevied whole f1 system incl power unit,f1 auctator,f1 bump,sensors that from my friend's f360 with all over damaged ...I'll post what compment of f1 system fault I find out.

Thanks

 

Here's a link to my thread over on Club Scud that might be useful to anyone reading this thread. It also contains an Alfa part number that means the relay can be had a lot cheaper.

www.clubscuderia.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=36897

 

Hi
I recevied the whole f1 system by my friend's 03' F360 F1...This time I chose install this f1 system by local ferrari dealer...After 3 days the service manager called me and said my TCU and ELECTROMAGNETIC SENSOR of P/N 168729 has error then replaced 03' TCU and another f360's ELECTROMAGNETIC SENSOR the vehicle with NO f1 trans error and shift-learning could be process..
The service of dealer replaced power unit, f1 TCU,f1 actuator,bleeding then vehicle with engine&trans light on while no P/N 168729 in stock with their parts department.

I'm so confuse for why and how to this fault?????
Any opinions????

Thanks

 

Same thing happen to me right now...

 

I found this thread while searching for a resolution to my issue and wanted to add some "potential" wisdom:

-i found the replacement F1 pump/motor on ebay. Someone in the UK is selling them for export only, so no VAT to USA residents like me. $367 with shipping.

Alfa Romeo Selespeed Pump 147 156 GT 51736315 46527834 New Export Only | eBay

This is the Alfa 147/156 unit. It is not the same part as on my 1999 Ferrari 360. The mating surface between pump and motor on the Alfa Salespeed part is flat. The mating surface on the original has carve outs, drilled buttressed construction, and mine did not have the flat gasket. Perhaps the pump is not really different, but it represents an updated design?

No matter....it worked.

-one of the videos linked into this thread does not say to put grease into the cavity where the mating piece lives. I put some universal grease, but not as much as i found in the old pump. I wander if I should revisit.

-the small /loose black mating coupler appears to be different on the original and the new pump. The cutout on the new coupler (for the pump/motor shaft interface) does not extend to the edge of the circle. It still works and this seems like a more secure design.

-I had also added the heat sink from Ricambi to the new unit. It should not hurt. There are radial fins attached to 2 quarter circles, banded together around the electrical motor with a bracket. A simple install.

-My bolts connecting the pump to the motor were not in good shape. I have once overfilled the reservoir and the bolt heads suffered for it. I also drive the car. To work, to drop off kid at school, for grocery runs. Inspect your hardware!

-The job took 90 minutes, but this was because 20 mins were spent fishing for a 10 mm socket that rolled off the intake and deep into the engine bay. 10 mins was spent fighting a grease stain, since I did not initially put on my garage clothes. After all....I was only going to poke around and check things out. I have accidentally committed to the repair in my work khakis.




My issue was a little odd. I would occasionally get a refusal to shift out of neutral and into first, but only after the car was warm and stationary. I would also occasionally see a clunky/loud shift down into second, also when hot. I have replaced the solenoid behind the passenger seat and it did not change things. I then replaced the pump partly to see if it would help, and partly as a matter of insurance. I have not had a reoccurring of the same symptoms yet.
I had previously done a full clutch/flywheel/sensor/T/O bearing job at 26K miles, but I did outsource that one.

I think I am good for the next 25K miles. Much obliged to the poster who wrote up the procedure and others who have chimed in. Lifetime membership on ferrarichat is a no brainer.

 

Hi guys,
it seems that these F1 problems will never end, but it is fine to found forum and thread like this... I have the shifting problems too, random N dropouts etc. Although pump seems to work fine, it runs very often, aprrox. every 5 sec. when idling on N with engine warmed up. All of this is attended by slightly vibrating pressure hose that leads to T/O bearing of the cluth and making "buzz" noise together. No symptoms on the cold or not fully warmed engine.
I read all what was written above, compared it to my problems and decided to begin with fixing it.
So i started to DIYing my clutch yesterday hoping this will help and reveal some new informations about whole F1 system ..
Every experience with faulty F1 is expensive, but also helpful to the others when its good analyzed like in this thread Will keep you posted

Milan

 

I bought the same pump and performed the same replacement a few months ago - here's the thread on Club Scuderia: http://www.clubscuderia.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?48866-360-F1-pump

All fine so far!

I've had this exact problem too. When it refuses to go into first, does it go into second instead? The pump change didn't fix this, but I just had a clutch/flywheel/bearing etc. job and I'm waiting to see if it's now fixed!

 

i just had a long drive, and the my issue is also still there ! Argh....And I have had my clutch/flywheel already changed. You have to PM me if your issue goes away.
I suspect that my issue is related to something electronic, although my second gear change is also clunky (only when warm and intermittent). Mine would display the F1 error code and not want to go into any gear from Neutral. Sometimes it will go into 2nd. Other times...I need to restart the car and it is fine.

Maybe one of the position sensors is bad (the new one that they put in?). The dealership saw a lot of error codes. I will take it back and let them figure it out, since they did the clutch job, and I eliminated the one remaining obvious culprit.