Another timing belt thread...

Hey Mods, is it possible to adjust the software around here so that every time some numbskull types the words "Timing Belts" the system automatically creats a post with this sentence and locks the thread?





Very well put Phil.

I will have to remember that line.

 

ROTFLMAO!

I just stopped driving it, and have it driven around town, on a Roll Back.........

Maybe also post the Graphic of the TSB, that Terry added........."Here it is, from Enzo's lips...."

 

OK, it's not, but even 4 hours seems like a ludicrously short time to me...... Turns out there's a "Shop Talk" article in this months Forza wherein the owner of Norwood Performance in Dallas does a major on a 2001 360 Spider. He's quoted as saying the job takes around 20 hours......

I'm certainly no Rifledriver (who is? ) but even with a decent lift I don't reckon the undertrays etc and the seats could come out in 3 hours..... Let alone the initial SD2 tests before starting the work and so on.

Cheers,
Ian

 

lets see his 3 hours - mine all winter (3 months).....I'll take the 3 hours (took me that long to get the rear bumper off).

At any rate , how do you calculate "peace of mind" .....every 3-5 years for me.

 

Ian,

I was only referring to the 308, not any other model. I tend to assume that all posts are about the 308. Because......the 308 is the only model that really matters, isn't it?

At least to me it is.



Phil

 

My bad - This thread seems to have drifted thru' many different models. Sorry!

 

lol...probably the same reason I thought it was an engine out because I was thinking 348

 

Where your car sits and where and how it is driven has a HUGE effect on the longevity of timing belts! My Porsche 968 is supposed to have the cam belts/tensioners replaced every 50K miles or every 5 years. I just had it done after 12 YEARS of being in my hands, and the Porsche mechanic said it looked as good as new, with NO SIGNS OF WEAR and no apparent oxidation/glazing! The secret to the longevity of this 12-year-old timing belt is that this car has spent the last 12 years in my heated garage under a cover, only driven about 400-500 miles a year on dry sunny days (hasn't been WET in 12 years except for an annual wash and wax!), and I only drive it to PCA shows and mild driver's ed track days. I truly think this is probably how most nice F-cars are driven as well, due to the fact that most F-cars I've ever seen for sale have odometers that show 1000-1200 miles per year typical, and I know there aren't many sitting outside every day nor being driven in the snow! How many timing belt failures have each of you actually experienced first-hand? Like, none, right? So I don't understand why the Owner's Manual for Ferraris says "every 3 years"! That is really odd, considering the cushy lives these cars live!! A Formula One Ferrari engine obviously needs belt changes after every race, so maybe that's why the factory gets absurdly cautious!
I will soon purchase a 355 or a 550M, and I'm setting it beside my Porsche, and I'm only going to be changing the timing belts every 6-7 years! Plus today's belts ARE made better than they were 10-15 years ago!
---Dr. K

 

I do know you, don't I!!

 

You probably mean the "Bulletin Released by Ferrari on all 8 cylinder engines" states every 3-years, because my manual says 7 years/52,000, as per post # 14 on the previous page (thanks Taz by the way for posting )

 

Yep...they probably are. But the tensioner bearings are still sub-standard and you'll quickly find out what extended belt/tensioner intervals really cost.

Perhaps I should put you into touch with the QV owner whose timing belt jumped, despite looking pretty good after six years. The belts and tensioners are cheap, in comparison to the 16 bent valves...

 

Mike- When all the EPA stuff started really hitting manufacturers in the late 70s, Ferrari thought the timing belts had to last throughout the 50,000 mile emissions warranty, so they set the interval at 52,500 miles. When they finally figured out changing belts did not affect the warranty, they switched to 3 years. They originally thought they would have to pay for the belt changes themselves if they were made before the 50,000 miles. No way they were going to do that. Better to have a few customers' belts break than get stuck with the belt change bill themselves.

Times change, but not much.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Thanks Taz

 

FYI: "DrK" banned for being a sock puppet.

 

I saw that...banned by Yin yesterday for having 2 accounts

 

J.R.- What was his other alias?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/member.php?u=77833

And showing his ass....

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269033

 

When I bought my 308 GTSi Jan 2005, it had documentation that the 30k maintenance
on 4/11/89. The seller was familiar with timing belts and he never had one fail due to age
and he did not the belts needed service until the milage was put on them.

It had been 16 years since the service, I would take the car only when the belts had been
serviced.

He called when the belts had been serviced and said I was right to have it done: the front bank behind the AC had never been serviced, not only was belt primed to fail also tensioner bearing did not spin freely.

I don't reccommed it but 39950 miles and 29 years.

You asked.

Stephen

 

As appeared in:
Sports Car Market—February 2007 issue
Sheehan Speaks
by Michael Sheehan

1983 Boxer, 30,000 miles, original cam belts…
Maintenance has always been a large part of owning a Ferrari; if you are mechanically inclined, consider an older car you can work on yourself. Either that, or seriously research some of the service requirements on newer cars—timing belts for example. When do they really need replacing?
Let’s consider the advantages of knuckle–bashing first. Back in 1972, I bought my first Ferrari, a 1959 250 Pinin Farina coupe, S/N 1447 GT, for the then–market–price of $2,000. My inspiration was endless reading of Road & Track magazine, based only a dozen miles down the road in Newport Beach, and Ferrari, the Sports & GT Cars, by Dick Merritt, then the only current book on Ferraris.
The very few Ferrari owners I knew or met were “gearheads,” diehard enthusiasts who bought Ferraris because they represented the pinnacle of automotive engineering and complexity. Inspired by enthusiasm and necessity, I sourced oil filters, learned how to change twelve plugs, check the cam timing, adjust the valves, and the other intricacies of Ferrari ownership.
It was a simpler time; gas was 30 cents a gallon and the small cloud that followed me was resolved by buying Castrol oil by the case. To this day I do not know if the heater or wipers worked, because I never drove it on a cold or rainy day. I do know that my first Ferrari made glorious sounds, defined my automotive addiction, and never left me stranded.
DAILY DRIVERS, TECHNICIAN’S NIGHTMARE
In the mid–late 1970s, the Ferrari market and the profile of the Ferrari buyer changed forever with the introduction of the 308 and a flood of gray–market 512 BBs. Ferraris now had a/c and power windows that worked, and they could be driven every day. Independent shops sprang up to maintain the new cars. Owner’ manuals improved and detailed shop manuals were available. But the factory–installed smog equipment on the 308s and gray–market systems on the 512 BBs became a technician’s nightmare.
Through the 1980s and into the 1990s, the smog and a/c systems on the Mondial and 400 series resulted in overworked and overly complicated electrical systems, fuse boxes, ECUs, and alternators. The Mondial, 348 and 355, and the Boxer and Testarossa required an engine–out service, and service costs spiraled.

Simple 250 lump

Complex Testarossa engine
Ferraris became much more complex, with semi–active suspensions, power steering, climate control, power seats, and integrated engine management systems. The 348 evolved into the 355, horsepower jumped from 300 to 370, the redline went from 7,500 to 8,500, and headers began to burn through because of the high temperatures of emission–clean engines. A whole new world of bad valve seats and guides and burnt valves emerged as Ferrari tried to squeeze more power out of less fuel.
BELT INSPECTION AT 52,500 MILES
Engines had changed to cam belts from chains, and belt replacement became a regular part of servicing. But through the 1990s, Ferrari never had an official policy mandating cam belt replacement. Indeed, the factory warranty book for the 355 recommended a cam belt inspection at 52,500 miles. The reality is that cam belts virtually never break. And even if one loses a single tooth, because the cam sprockets are multi–toothed, the loss of a single or even several separate teeth on the same belt would not cause the cam timing to slip.
In 2002, Ferrari instituted the “certified pre–owned program”. To be “certified” a Ferrari had to have cam belts replaced within two and a half years or less. While the 355/360/456 and 550 did not have cam belt problems, they did have tensioner problems, and the early 360 had cam variator problems. Ferrari found the most efficient way to have the tensioners and variators checked was to insist on a mandatory three–year belt replacement. The good news was that the 360, 456, 550, and 575 could be serviced with the engine in, and so costs were not as crippling.
NOT YOUR DAUGHTER’S TOYOTA
While your daughter’s Toyota may go 100,000 miles on a cam belt, a Toyota doesn’t put out over 400 hp, doesn’t rev to 7,500 rpm, and doesn’t have radical cam timing and stiff valve springs. Under these circumstances, cam belts can wear and stretch, not to mention the onset of leaking seals and worn–out tensioners.
So did Ferrari build cars with cam belts from 1974 to 2002—some 28 years—and then suddenly decide belts need to be replaced every three years? Fellow SCM writer Steve Ahlgrim of T. Rutlands, the Atlanta Ferrari experts, interviewed a Gates belt engineer who said Gates recommended changing belts every nine years.
Today’s obsessive–compulsive mandate that cam belts need to be replaced on the twelfth month of the fifth year is simply silly. For example we bought and sold 1983 512 BB S/N 35411 in November, with 30,000 miles and it had never had cam belts changed. When the cam belts were finally replaced after 25 years and 30,000 miles, they showed no unusual wear or deterioration.
Here’s the bottom line on belt replacement. You’ve got the following choices.
1. Every nine years, as Gates recommends.
2. Every 52,500 miles, as Ferrari used to recommend for the 355 and earlier cars.
3. Every five years, as is the common recommendation today.
4. Every three years, as Ferrari has now decided needs to be done for a car to be “certified.”
5. Every three months, if you want to keep your mechanic busy.
Personally, I get by with an annual visual inspection of the cam belt and tensioners, and with a replacement every five to nine years, unless my car spends time at the track.
ELECTRICAL ENGINEER OR MECHANIC?
Long–term problems with newer Ferraris will have more to do with obsolete electrical parts than mechanical ones. Parts for the Testarossa and 348 are quickly becoming unobtainium, and it’s a matter of time before Ferrari stops supplying parts for the 355 and 456/550 series. Specialists like T. Rutlands scour the world looking for rare parts like ECUs and discontinued light assemblies.
There is now a whole new cottage industry of high–tech computer–literate propeller–heads who patiently disassemble and rebuild discontinued relay and fuse boxes, ECUs, a/c and heater controls. Today, an electrical background is as important as a mechanical one to maintain a modern Ferrari.
And every time the owner of a modern Ferrari takes his steed in for work, the mechanic can be counted on to point out other problems. Because of the litigious nature of a society that breeds more lawyers than engineers, a detailed inspection by any auto dealer, be he Ford or Ferrari, is an industry obligation. Having thicker wallets, most Ferrari owners want to be advised of impending issues, because bringing the car back is a bigger annoyance than paying more now.
OLDER IS EASIER
We sell many classic era (Daytona and earlier) Ferraris, and the ownership expectations and personality profiles are very different from new car buyers. A 275 buyer is at peace with some exhaust smoke, less than stellar compression, minor oil leaks, older paint, or heater controls that don’t work, as these will be resolved “when they get around to it.” The 275 will be a third or fourth car, and if the owner has to wait for parts, so be it. Plugs for his neighbor’s 456/575 may be $22, but the 275 owner can buy them at Pep Boys for $3 each and install them himself.
If you want to enjoy a Ferrari with today’s state–of–the–art technologies and performance—one with power steering, great brakes, effective a/c, modern safety features, and readily available parts—you have to accept the vastly greater costs to maintain it.
MICHAEL SHEEHAN has been a Ferrari broker and a racer for 30 years. He has raced in the Mazda Pro Series and the Trans–Am Series, as well as IMSA GTO and IMSA Camel–Lite, with three separate drives in the 24 Hours of Daytona.

 

Follow the link to alot of informative articles by Michael Sheehan
Good reading.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/articleindex.shtml

 

Not to disrespect Sheehan, but 25 years on belts is absolute neglect. The point here isnt how long one or two have lasted, but what kind of damage results when one fails. 9 times out of 10 it only bends some valves, no biggie. Cough up $15K and your back in action. But in a few well known instances it has done far worse. You can break a valve head off if your at high engine speed, and its a whole different ball game. You sure wont get by for $15K after the rod goes through the block, and certainly not if parts detonate into the gearbox. Dont think it hasnt happened. These arent the same type of engines as the turbo cars or late model cars some mention, these are "interference" engines, meaning that if a valve is open and the piston comes up, it will collide.

If you can neglect your Ferrari long enough to save the cost of a rebuild and get away with it, you still lose. You lose because after 4 or 5 years you car isnt running optimally. You lose because after a time, you know its a grenade with the pin pulled and you cant drive it with confidence and you cant enjoy it as well. But there is another cost, for those of us who really give a damn.

As owners aqnd enthusiasts I believe we owe it to our community to steer them down the right path. How anyone here can suggest to another to neglect their car in this way and to lead them to potential financial disaster is just plain wrong. I do feel we could get by with 5 years, but to go any further or to suggest it is really bordering on craziness. There is just no logical reason anyone owning a Ferrari can offer to neglect their car in this way other than simply being cheap or lazy. All this said, I would highley suggest to any potential buyer of one of these cars steer far and wide of any owner who treats a machine this way or suggests it. The guys who get by 12 years not servicing it wont ever service it. They will sell it off cheap to some poor sucker and its their hand grenade.

Sad we have to keep beating the poor dead horse, but it will never end.

 

Very well worded....and this is a great line by Phil:

 

For my 308, I'm on my 3rd, 5-yr (4-6K miles / yr) interval --- no problems. One important point is this :

When designs and specifications are determined, they are owned by the Engineers of the "application" not the Engineers of the "component". Meaning, for example, that design considerations for the car (engine) are more important than the considerations for the belt by itself.

Although car manufacturers work with belt manufacturers (and other suppliers) to ensure that component designs "match" the application / environment, the belt maker is not as knowledgeable as is the car maker about what conditions the belt will be exposed to. The belt is merely supplied with such and such specs and verified to meet those specs in such and such a manner, but it is the car maker who determines that their individual application provides an environment that does not exceed the performance at which the belt is capable of operating.

And if you compare how Ferrari's (V-8 engines in particular) configurations operate timing belts to how nearly every other performance car maker does --- it is clear that Ferrari applications put more stress on the belts (more heat, more load, more friction, less protection {in some cases}).

Thus, you can logically assume that a given belt design will have a shorter life cycle when run on a Ferrari V-8, than on almost any other engine. Exactly how much shorter can only be accurately quantified by proper testing done on Ferrari applications. This type of testing has never been done ---- certainly Ferrari has never done (and will never do) this testing


SO HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE :

Is Ferrari's recommendation for belt change interval "overly conservative" ? = PROBABLY

Do "modern" belt designs have more operating life than Ferrari's original specification ? = PROBABLY

Has anyone, anywhere, anytime definitely verified (by Engineering testing) the "true" operating life for t-belts on a Ferrari V-8 ? = NO

Could testing be done to more accurately determine belt life for a Ferrari V-8 ? = YES

Will anyone, anywhere, anytime perform such testing ? = NO

What do we have to go by in the absence of this objective test data ? = FERRARI'S RECOMMENDATION + OBSERVATION AND OPINION OF SEVERAL EXPERIENCED MECHANICS + YOUR OWN JUDGMENT

Is that enough to make a good decision on when to change your belts ? = DOESN'T MATTER --- IT'S ALL WE'VE GOT

 

Well put.

I am sure the belt threads are tiresome to most of ou....but they have provided me with countless hours of entertainment (and good information) over the last 3 months. Thanks to all for sharing your wisdom.