I got the guide holes re-bored...but I want to finish them slightly larger than I was thinging so I need a different reamer. It wil be here today. Delayed on the guide holes I decide to look at some of the other stuff the needs doing on the heads. I still need to add the oil return passages to match what I put on the block and I think a could lugs to bolt the timing cover to. Then there is the question of the cam covers and original oil drains going to the cam cover......I'd like them to go. I think I'm going to mill/weld the flange ont he exhaust side of the head to look a lot more like the intkae side, then mill all the oil return stuff off the cam cover and see what I have. The cam cover has and inside wall that I might be able to keep and just fill the little holes.....but its got some curves in it and may not look right which will mean cutting the wall and flange off and starting over. The finished product will be a much narrower cam cover so it will look quite different from a flat 12 TR cover and a lot more like the V12 400 cam covers.....I think Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Long time lurker, first time poster lol... Will this have a large effect on your hp goals? Or do you think you will still have a good amount of tune-ability with the single set of injectors? Also, will this make your idle system "touchy"?
Can you design for all 24 and block off/ plug the ports of ones you can't use right away?. This would allow you to step it up later when the electronics are available.
Im keeping the high injectors which are the important ones for high rpm hp so there should be no impact on hp. If there is a problem it will be down near idle and maybe cold starting. Well see what happens. When I was talking abot ECUs 9 months ago the US motec guy tried to assure me that hed tuned a couple 749 and 999 ducatics that the TBs and high mount injectors came off from and by being careful with the injector fire angle you could make them work right and he didnt think I would have a problem ..but I didnt want to take any chances because cars always seem more sensitive to off idle issues than bikes due to the higher lbs/hp. know it will run but there is some risk that it wont be as go as Id prefer. I think the multi-MAP 12 MAP sensor board will ensure I have a good clean MAP signal and an ECU with individual cylinder fuel mapping and options on the acceleration enrichment (like a motec M800) should be able to handle things and now that Im at the f**k it, I just want it done phase and Im going to give it a try. The work on the custom 24 injector ECU or adding a second M800 is also an option if I decide I really need the low mount injectors.
Yes .but if the high mount injectors work out ok then I have 12 holes with plugs forever and I dont want that. The safest path is to just use the low mount injectors because the high mounts are the easy ones to add whenever ..but I know that that will cost top end hp and we cant have that. So, high mount it is and lets geter done.
I guess it wouldn't be that big a deal to R & R the intakes to add some more later, ..but I imagine by then you would be moving on to turbine power or something..........
Mark, I'm sure you've already explored and dismissed the idea of going with TWO ECU's? One controlling ignition and the 12 top injectors and one controlling the 12 bottom injectors. You could most likely run one set of sensors and split the signal to both ECU's. You could tune each ECU to do its own thing (that is: get progressively less fuel at climbing rpms for the lower injectors and progressively more fuel at the same time from the top injectors. Sure, it's a bit of a hassle, but as long as you're running both sets at the same fuel pressures and either use the same flow rates or at least keep the acutal rates in mind while tuning, then I don't see why you wouldn't be able to make this work? Or alternatively do what Ferrari did themselves with the ignition on the early 308's: treat the engine as two inline 6's. That is: One ECU per bank. Sure, you'd invest two times as much, but you could work with cheaper ECU's, right? Heck, you could even work with 3 V8 rated ECU's and run 24 injectors from that.... Or am I missing something here?? Hans
2 M800s would work fine and can be linked together and tuned as 1 ecu.....and cost about $12000 that I don't have
Good plan. A lot of ambitious builds end up failing because compromises are not made at the proper time. You can always add stuff later. I follow this mantra every time and my car always runs in the spring no matter what I do in the winter.
Then get 3 Vipec V88's and pay $3000 Heck, I bet 3 or 4 Megasquirts would even cut it, each working on 3 or 4 cylinders, each programmed with the same parameters and working off the same signal inputs. Welcome to the digital world, same input equals same output. So other than that it may be a bit unconventional, why not??? Unconventional never scared you away, right??
Hard on myself 3-4 years from now when I care again [b[IF[/b] there is a problem, easy on myself and my wallet today.
I'm not fond of Megasquirts, we'll have none of that on this project. Multiple ECUs are a real pain in the *ss to deal with setting up. There are a lot og 8 injector ecus (including the new MS 3) so I'd need 3...but that means there is no way to have the ecus looking at an O2 from a single bank, but would need 2 looking at the entire engine along with the other 2 ecus.....and that means no closed loop control would because the ecus would all be trying to make adjustments that affect the same output. No good way to have traction control either. For multiple ecus it needs to be 1,2,4,6,12 with an equal number of O2 sensors to get closed loop. My STRONG preference is motec. They do TC, they have individual cylinder mapping (not just trim) and a lot more choices on how things are controled. They cost more, but they are a lot better. I'm going to pick up 1 for now and 3-4 years form now if I'm not happy I'll add a second or more likely my custom ECU will be read and I'll put the the motec back on ebay and probably get exaxtly what I paid for it.
Mark, The Haltech Platinum Sport 2000 will run 12 cylinders sequential with 6 ignition outputs to run waste spark direct fire. If you wanted to run 2, you could control staged injection for 24 injectors...and at less than half the cost of Motec. They have 32x32 mapping and you are familiar with them. Just a thought. Email me if you want me to price them for you. I can get them at a discount. Spang
It's a good ecu but you have to watch the wording carfully. It will do up to 12 injectors sequentialy and up to 6 ingnitions.....but it has a total of 14 output channels so if you use 12 for fuel there are only 2 left for ignition and that means 1 or 2 distributor ignition is the only option. Also there is no TC option The M800 motec has the same 14 outputs (the haltech is basically a clone, same plugs and everythign) but motec sells an ignition expander that will turn 1 output into 8 on the first channel and a second will create 4 more on the second channel. I'm thinking 1 expander and waste spark. The new dominator has a true 12 fuel and 12 ignition and will accept a remote TC unit (but it's a spark retard which I don't really like). So I think for my application it would be a better choice than a haltech. It's $1599...they don't truel have the 36-1 trigger or 12 cyl operation coded yet but said "soon". Lioke the haltch there is cylinder trim, but not actual cylinder maps....I could use the trim to get full power right then adjust the throtle plate to be mis-matched to get the low poer mixture dead on, better than nothing but that is a pain in the butt compared to the cylinder maps motec has just in case I need them. Anyway, I have a couple used M800 options available right now and will most likely pick one up (I made an offer on one yesterday but haven't heard back yet). I had stareted an M800 install before I decided to do the V12 (I sold the M800 to buy yht TR heads) so it's the least work, I have the connectors and programming cable and it will the easiest and most likely will do everything I need to do.
This morning I finished cleaning up the guide hole so as soon as I make up some temp guides I'm ready to hit the flow bech. I hoped to finish yesterday but was delayed about an hour when I realize little one was "making soup" with potting soil, bubble stuff and 1/2 case of stucco dye....it was quite a mess and whil I cleaned that up my new reamer disappeared. The heads are of course wrapped after the welding. It doesn't seem too bad, about .005" side to side and maybe .010" top to bottom, hopefully it doesn't get much worse when I weld in the intake manifolds.
I got the temp guides made this morning including a fancy feature on the springs I use on the flow bench fit the back of the guide and hold them down in place. I think I'm ready to start flowing.....I may cut a temp feature on the top of the valve stems (it will get cut-off when I cut the valves to final length) to hold the springs flow bench springs. I did learn my old lathe puts about .0005" taper on things up near the chuck which will make cutting the real guides and having them come out straight a little fun...... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Lets play if you were me. Where exactly would you put the oil tank? I hate to lose the truck and I hate to run hose all the way up front. What about the water pump? Ive been thinking electric maybe controlled by the ecu, but there is something to be said for mechanical and water circulating though the block at all times that the electric pump wouldnt give me. Keep the power brakes? Ive been thinking Id go manual and know a couple people have but I continue to hesitate. Serpentine belt? It might be just the alternator or maybe the waterpump too so Im not sure how much it really matters. I had in my head Id buy a fluid damper with machined on the OD for a serpentine belt which will save a lot of length and weight on the damper assembly and then almost any alternator on the shelf at pep boys will work I dont know.
If I were you, I'd have set fire to my garage and suffered serious burns long before now. What do you mean by 'lose the truck'? No idea what you're talking about with most of that, but if it was me I'd keep the servo-assisted brakes. Go for stainless steel brake lines with a narrower internal diameter... it gives a slightly shorter pedal travel and if you ever boil your fluid then pedal firmness will come back with fewer pumps. I don't have any Ferrari experience, but this setup really worked well on my MINI. All the best, Andrew.
Not sure on your tank location because I don't know the space constraints you're dealing with, but I'd advise keeping it as close to the engine as possible. I'm betting there will be room on the passenger side rear of the compartment where the fuel distributor used to be...if you can even remember where it used to be located. There are some thin diameter/tall tanks out there that hold 10+ quarts and don't burn too much space. I would definitely stick with a mechanical water pump. Just too simple to screw with. If you do a custom dampener, they can use any pulley you want so serp belt or normal is just a judgment call. Normal belt pulley will weigh less and have less rotating mass...not that parasite hp robbing is much of a concern on a 800hp street motor. Oh wait a minute...this is Mark I'm talking about. For the brakes, definitely dump the booster and go with a Tilton twin master cylinder set up with a balance bar assembly. Cockpit tunable and as good as it gets for adjusting balance and pedal feel. Especially with those titanic calipers you're bolting on that thing! The stuff is cheap too. Google Racer Wholesale, Pegasus, or TC race cars for good sources. Also, if you screw up and pick a cylinder bore that is too small or large, you can replace it with the correct size for around $80. Same goes for replacement if one goes bad. Spang
As long as you don't play golf, sectioning off an area of the trunk will be easiest, especially since the engine bay will be slightly more cramped than with the 3.0 lol. Depending on what you do for an exhaust, perhaps down low you could build something that hugged the body work???? Don't know how much there is to gain from the serpentine belt opposed to the work needed to do the change. If you are wanting to move through this project a little faster now, I would have the car make the power initially, then you can do things to free up more as it goes. As far as the water pump, you can still have it circulate though the engine and be a constant on, just need to re-configure the thermostat housing and bypass ports. Although I haven't looked at a 400 thermostat to see how easy of a task that would be....
