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fca empire region

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by 95spiderman, Mar 16, 2010.

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  1. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 13, 2005
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    Bob
  2. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
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    I've drafted two or three attempts at a reply here, but its just winding me up and rather than resorting to a response of F.R.O as we'd say in England I think I'll give up trying to make my point for a third time. Bob S clearly doesn't want to hear anything to suggest that FCA days were anything other than perfect in the past and no change was required.
     
  3. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    I suppose you might conclude that but didn't I just mention the incident at Limerock?
    Nothing perfect about that.

    I really am not trying to piss you or anyone else off. It's just that argument about the "brake check" doesn't cut it. The first time you brought it up it was a bit scant on details. So now we have the full the story and you still think it was a major error. Now could that situation been dealt with in a better way from your perspective and perhaps mine? Perhaps.

    Maybe Bob should have just put up with him following 2 feet behind gone into the pits and had him black flagged. I think he was responding to what he felt was a more immediate danger to him and his car. That driver had obviously reached the jerk squared level.

    So then he could have made a public spectacle of the guy and his instructor at yet another drivers meeting for not following the rules laid out in the previous meeting. Yes that would have sent a message. I'm not sure how well it would have gone over at a national though. I've seen people throw out of track events in that way before. Sometimes it was the right thing to do and I know of another case where I disagreed with it and I don't think it worked out all that well. Hey, it's a judgement call and they're not always perfect.

    If you think I'm calling the FCA Empire Region track events perfect go back and read my first post again. I don't. I have things I'd like improved too. I don't think this is time or place to discuss them by arguing over the details of specific incidents. That can and should be done.

    If there is one good thing about any of this unfortunate mess it's that quite a few of us had a meeting and for once it wasn't at an event or in the driver's meeting 5 minutes before we're about to drive. We can address any issues regarding what people consider deficiencies in another meeting.

    So maybe THAT should become a regular thing?

    You could attend give us your input at one of them. No one was shy about discussing the major topics at the last meeting so a healthy debate is welcomed.

    But the melodrama that's been perpetrated by a handful of people with an ulterior agenda wasn't the way to accomplish that. I think we should focus on resolving that situation and stop taking pot shots with an incomplete set of facts or referencing unrelated incidents.

    A couple of the suggested improvements in that club announcement email I found worth while and I think I mentioned that.

    Bob S.
     
  4. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
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    Since this is just carrying on I will attempt to add some additional perspective. I think that there will likely be a formal statement from someone in the FCA at some point, but I guess it will probably go via email channels (and will perhaps make its way here!).

    In the meantime - I'd like to make it clear that this is IN MY OPINION, since I am not a player in this - I'm simply one of the guys that goes along to these events:

    Brake Checking - I'm not willing to just let this lie. Just because someone else is in your opinion being foolish, does not excuse you brake checking someone. I don't care about all the other circumstances - brake checking someone is simply not an acceptable thing to do on track. Rationalization, justification and background is all just that. Its just plain dangerous full stop, period end of story.

    It seems to me based on a couple of conversations that I've had over the last couple of days that a "loss of plot" has occurred:

    I've been told that a competing series of track events has been set up to deliberately coincide with the NER days.
    I also been told that its been repeatedly stated that Bruce is getting paid, when he is not. Bruce isn't even getting any expenses paid, when historically Bob did get his hotel and travel paid for.
    I've also been told that someone phoned LRP pretending to be Leon to change the FCA event from un-muffled to muffled. And those are just the tip of the iceberg here.

    There's also been a rumor proliferated that Bruce and Leon want to kick a certain high profile member out for being reckless on the track. That's not true either - and I'll follow this post with an email on that subject that I received and seems like its worth sharing here.

    I had no idea it was that bad till I spoke to a couple of people and it makes me sad that it can come to this - can't we all just have some fun at our track events?
     
  5. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
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    The following was sent by Al DeLauro to the FCA board and as has been widely forwarded to the FCA members in new england. Perhaps I shouldn't be sharing it here, but I say what the hell (I am pissed off and don't like being portrayed as someone making stuff up):

    --------------------------------------

    Fellow FCA Board Members,



    By now many of you have seen and possibly read the email written by Bob Coates last Friday regarding "Empire Region Unrest". Read in isolation, without the benefit of historical fact, it appears to be a fairly compelling piece. Regrettably, it omits many key facts and, even more problematic, it offers for your consideration, "facts" that are (in many cases) inaccurate and very misleading



    As you know, I have always thought very highly of Bob Coates. He is correct that I presented him the first ever award for distinguished service to the FCA. With that admiration in mind, despite the appearance of significant difficulties in the ESR and the fact that our Bylaws required leadership change in the ESR, I had chosen to not make these issues a matter of public concern. I wanted to preserve Bob's dignity and focus only on the positive. Very regrettably, Bob's behavior over the past few months, culminating in last Friday's email note to the FCA Board, now forces me to do otherwise.



    I will not bore you with a point-by-point refutation of much of what is in Bob's email, but I will just highlight a few points that you might want to be aware of and that might give you a different perspective when reviewing his many other allegations.



    Please note that John Hurabiell’s email to you of two days ago, details even more refutations of allegations made by Bob.



    Apparent Unhappiness of Members in the Region



    Bob's email creates an impression that all was well within the Region under his leadership. Unfortunately, some members of the ESR during Bob's tenure as Regional Track Chair and/or Region Director, thought otherwise. Membership plummeted on his watch, declining from 371 in 12/99 to 205 on 12/08, when Leon replaced him; a decline of 166 members or 45%. This cannot be reasonably interpreted as a positive thing, indicative of a happy membership. Moreover, while Bob cites people who were happy with his performance as regional track chair, there are others who were not; some are still with the FCA, but refuse to participate in any track event run by Bob, others, I suspect from the numbers you have just seen, voted with their feet.


    Time in position and leadership responsibilities


    FCA Bylaws require that a Region Director maintain position for no more than four years. After Bob was appointed as Empire RD (to replace Jeff Ippoliti, who had to step aside for personal reasons), he served out the remainder of Jeff's initial term and then, I understand, was elected to his own first term. He chose to remain in office until October/November of 2008 (it is unclear if and when further elections were held) when he was replaced by Leon Bourdage - a total period of about 8 years (during which time, he also served as regional Track Chair/Track Steward). He had repeated opportunities to find a replacement and step aside, but apparently chose not to.


    In late 2008, he was spoken to by the then national President, Don Ambrose, regarding his excessive time in office (a violation of our Bylaws), and was told that he would have to find a replacement and hold an election before the end of 2008. This in keeping with the ideal term schedule that permits a new officer to take office as of January 1, so that they have a couple of months to get settled before participating in their first Board Meeting in March.


    Bob felt that there was no one in the Empire Region then capable of being Region Director other than himself, but acknowledged that if there had to be a change, then Leon Bourdage would be the most logical successor. As no other candidates came forward, Leon was appointed to replace Bob as Regional Director. Bob continued onward in the role of Track Chair/Steward until the beginning of this year, when he was succeeded by the highly respected Bruce Ledoux.


    Need for a Region Director elected by ESR members



    The FCA Executive Committee and I could not agree more. Long before any petition was received requesting an election, one had been set for later this year (2010). This will coincide with the end of Leon's two-year term and put the ESR back on the footing it has needed to have for a very long time.



    After a decade of radically declining membership, the ESR and its members deserve a chance for change. It is our firm intent to give them the opportunity to exercise their choice to have one.



    Al
     
  6. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2003
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    And the email from John Hurabiell as well, referred to in the note below (email addresses removed and profanity changed since fchat will not allow it):

    ----------------------------------------------

    Copied below is the email that I sent to Bob yesterday. I am glad that he saw fit to share parts of it with you. I am not, however, pleased that it was surrounded by editorializing. I originally wrote to Bob on Friday to give him an opportunity to correct what he said. It is not a question of my memory versus his memory. I know what I said and what I definitely would not have said. What Bob claims that I said is completely out of character for me, even if I hadn’t remember the conversation. I have practiced law for more than 30 years and I learned at least that long ago that you don’t arrive at a conclusion until you have all of the facts—which in the summer of 2009 I did not have. At that time I did not know Bruce LeDoux from Adam. I had known Bob for at least a dozen years, not well, but I did know him. My pre-disposition was to give greater weight to what Bob had to say than to what Bruce had to say. Hence, I did not comment regarding Benny as Bob has stated.



    Sorry to drag you all into this but these mis-statements cannot go unchallenged. My e-mail of yesterday is as follows:



    Bob,



    Last Friday I sent you the email that appears below to correct mis-statements in your long missive to the Board and others. I had hoped that you would have corrected your mis-statements to all concerned. I do not like being misrepresented but as a gentleman I felt it only appropriate to correct your own mistakes before I challenge them publicly. Needless to say, I am disappointed that you have not done so. I have given you far more credit than that. Apparently my judgment about you was faulty. I will forward this email to everyone tomorrow if you have not correct your mis-statements by then.



    John



    From: John Hurabiell [mailto:xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 6:38 PM
    To: 'rc@xxxxx'
    Subject: RE: Empire State Region Unrest





    Bob,



    Your recollection of what I said to you is inaccurate. Specifically with respect to Benny Caiola what I said to you was that if (emphasize the word if) what Bruce had related was true, then Benny’s deviant behavior needed to be corrected, that we could not allow such dangerous driving. You did not explain to me anything about the track configuration at Lime Rock nor did you offer any explanation that would suggest that Benny was not at fault. You just didn’t believe it. Our conversation was not a big deal. I emphasized that it was your duty, your obligation as chief steward to make sure that irresponsible driving was dealt with immediately and decisively. I may well have also said that if his errant driving could not be corrected that he should then not be allowed on track with other cars, though I do not recall that. It does sound like something that I would say. Given that I did not witness the incident my style is to speak in the prospective, that is, “if it is thus and such then take this action” or “if it is that way then do this other thing.” The point being that you make it sound as if I had concluded that Benny was out of line. That is not what I said. I most specifically never said that Benny was not to be allowed to drive at FCA events. That is just false. I did have confidence in you and I am sorry that you have mis-understood what I said or what you think that I said. Frankly, I would greatly have preferred that you and Bruce sit down one-on-one and work through these issues—both with an open and receptive mind. My concern is with the safety of our events and avoiding liability. I was not unhappy with you (though I now am based upon what you have just written). Bob, rest assured that if I have a bone to pick with you that I will do so directly and openly, as I am now. I do recall your agreeing to speak with Benny because that is what I asked of you. I also asked that if he wasn’t cooperative that you then not let him run until you were satisfied that he’d not act like a horse’s ass on the track. And, just for the record, I have never heard anyone say that Benny should be thrown out of the Club though I’ve recently hear that rumor floating around.



    Personally, I am reminded of that old saw, “This is only a f-word-ing car club.”



    I will also say that from my contact with Bruce and Leon that neither one ever told me that they wanted Benny thrown out or prevented from driving. I cannot speak for what they may have told others.



    And since you’ve repeated the misinformation several times let me repeat in no uncertain terms that I never told you “not to allow Benny to drive at FCA events.” What I told you was that if the allegations were true and if Benny didn’t correct his on track behavior then we couldn’t stand the liability. Only after 1 (allegations were true) and 2 (Benny wouldn’t or couldn’t correct deviant behavior) could you get to 3 (Benny can’t be allowed to jeopardize the Club).



    Let’s shoot for accuracy in the future.



    Regards,



    John
     
  7. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    FCA membership probably IS in decline.......odd, where they would place the blame for that.
     
  8. ProCoach

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    #33 ProCoach, Apr 1, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
    Man, this is really unfortunate. The fact that the President of the National Club chose to go public airing this dirty laundry is a far cry from how these things used to be handled.

    No winners here...

    Twenty-five years ago, these events consisted of friends among friends, on-track and off.

    -Peter (attendee, participant and instructor) 1985 and 1990 Annual Meet Track Events, Watkins Glen
     
  9. pad

    pad Formula 3

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    Hey Dan360 - It seems you have a lot of "insider" information. Why not stand up and reveal yourself and your interest in this whole affair? For all we know, you’re some little old lady in a federal penitentiary with too much time on your hands.

    Also, please note that we are taking about ESR track events, not NER.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    He didn't go public. Someone here chose to do so.
     
  11. Athrill

    Athrill Rookie

    Jan 20, 2004
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    Moderators -- Please, I ask that you seriously consider closing this thread and even removing it. At this point it serves no meaningful purpose.

    It has moved so far off the original intent that we are threatening the reputations of many good people who have devoted many years to the FCA (whether leaked e-mail were intended or not is not the point). Is it really worth it so a few can go public with their personal grievances? I don't think so!

    Paul (PAD) you have been very outspoken and have initiated this thread. Yet, based on your location you are NOT a member of ESR, however you've taken it upon yourself (and 38 other drivers/sponsors) to try to dictate how the ESR should operate. You don't have a vote in our region!

    Moderators -- enough is enough. Close this thread before it gets even more out-of-hand.
     
  12. pad

    pad Formula 3

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    Atrill - I tend to agree with you. And you are correct; I am not a member of ESR. However, I was, until I resigned the other week, the Webmaster for ESR, I created and chaired the Autocross at the 2007 National at Watkins Glen (a ESR and NER hosted event), and I have attended many ESR track events over the last 7 or 8 years (when I'm not putting my car back together). So, I guess, have some interest in the outcome.

    At this point, I feel the national should step in and call for an immediate election for the ESR region. It is up to the members to put this right. Of course, that is only my non-voting opinion.

    Or, we can delete the thread, everyone go home, and let the ESR region die. Frankly Scarlett......
     
  13. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Oh I don't know, maybe it's all very revealing. I would hope it serves to inform and educate members of what a mess this all is and get everyone back to a meeting.

    I've been watching this slow motion train wreck for about 2 years with interest and now the train has finally arrived at Grand Central while we all argue about who's the conductor.

    Dan360 is apparently just a virtual member of FCA or simply isn't up to being identified. If he isn't intimately involved then someone at the top of this mess is hand feeding him. That alone is revealing.

    It's also quite possibly very cathartic for those frustrated by this situation. It is after all public speech. No really nasty name calling has ensued.


    I and most others weren't directly present at some of these alleged incidents or the conversations exchanged between a handful of people. So it becomes a he said he said situation for those not following the details since 2007. None the less one side of these incidents are being used as the basis for major changes. That doesn't sound very much the ideal of the American justice system.

    The best way IMHO to handle this and the one approach pointedly avoided thus far is to have a meeting of the entire region. In practical terms that means at least the NY, NJ, PA and any New England members because that's who show up at these events. You can try and eliminate people from PA, NJ and NE (ha!) from participating because technically it's an Empire State Region issue but that would be fundamentally dishonest.

    At such a meeting we can hash things out and try and figure a way out of this mess.

    But not at the end of the year, right now!

    It really IS that simple. The meeting might be a bit complicated though ...

    Bob S.
     
  14. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    At the meeting I was at the issue of Bruce possibly having a business agenda was raised but nothing more that I am aware of.

    I think member your are mentiong about being kicked out of the track events was Benny. I've heard that too. I've heard several verisons of what actually occured and none coincide with the accounts posted here so far. Tip of what Iceberg?

    Come on stop this.

    This why a meeting is needed. If BS is being spread then let's address that in person. I was told at that meeting that Dennis Liu, Bruce and Leon were specifically invited to attend. Not a single one of them did.

    Bob S.
     
  15. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
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    I have been an active participant in FCA-ESR events for many years now, and the track events that Bob Coates ran were all excellent. Plenty of track time, minimal problems, good instructors, well organized and well run, compared with other track events I've been to over the years. Were they perfect? No, but nothing in life is perfect. Could they be improved? In some limited respects, yes, but on the other hand, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. IMHO.

    Like many who attend these events, I have neither unlimited time nor unlimited resources. Since I still have to work for a living, maximizing my track time at these events is an important part of the equation. The ESR events did that for me -- getting the most track time I could reasonably expect at an event for a fair price.

    Now, apparently without any input from long-time participants (no one asked me or anyone else I know for our opinions), we suddenly have 4 separate run groups, rather than 3. Unless they are magicians, I don't see how you can get the same amount of track time out of that. Oh, at Watkins Glen for Labor Day, they are adding another day, plus vintage challenge races. Great! So to get the same amount of track time, I now have to take yet another day off from work. Yeah, that really helps. And what does that extra day do to the price? Plus, another night at the hotel, eating meals out, etc. (Note to self: You need to win the lottery -- start buying tickets NOW.)

    And I don't get the idea of running "White" as a separate group with mandatory instructors. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea of the white group was to allow novice/less experienced drivers to get the feel of soloing before they moved up into the blue group. Guess I must have misunderstood that one.

    I prefer not to get involved in all of the internal FCA politics. Being a national officer of another major car club, I understand that folks get worked up about these things, and that for whatever reason, some people feel the need to grab power. I wholly endorse the "It's a f-ing car club; this is supposed to be FUN, guys" approach to these things. Too bad more people don't buy into that philosophy.

    But in the case of track events, for me, there are two major things I want -- (1) maximum track time, and (2) maximum safety. It remains to be seen whether the new ESR leadership will provide maximum track time. So far, it appears not. I don't go to these events to watch historic or antique cars racing. I go to get on the track and have fun in my own car. And I want to know that everyone will play by the rules. In the past, most do, but some don't. It also remains to be seen whether the new ESR track folks will run events that are as safe or safer than they were in the past.

    So, how this will all shake out, I haven't a clue. But less track time for the same or more money makes little sense to me. There are too many alternative events out there. I stopped going to one particular club's annual event at Lime Rock because of lack of track time (too many run groups). An incident on track, or rain, or other problem, and you didn't get on the track at all. I'm waiting to see, but in the meantime I'm considering other alternative events as well.
     
  16. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2003
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    "But in the case of track events, for me, there are two major things I want -- (1) maximum track time, and (2) maximum safety."



    I'd happily trade quantity for quality. The local Porsche Club's events became parades, in every run group, haven't done one of their events in years. As someone with a faster car, I'd rather have three 25 minute sessions in which I can drive fast than 4 20s spent waiting for passing signals. I've been at race weekends where I longed for even two or three 20 minute sessions uncluttered by traffic. Just another take on the run time issue.

    Know nothing about the NE issues, hope they get worked out; again, I had a lot of fun at the few events I've attended. FWIW, I might be less inclined to attend an event involving the Ferrari Challenge and vintage racing as I'm far more interested in driving than spectating.
     
  17. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

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    I agree on the traffic issue, but as a practical matter, splitting the green and white groups up does nothing to alleviate the congestion we often find in the blue group, which always seems to have the largest number of participants. It only means less track time. And yes, I love those "under-attended" events where I get a lot of time with little traffic. Let the ponies stretch their legs!!!

    And my feelings exactly on the Ferrari Challenge and vintage racing. I'm going to drive, not watch races. If I want to watch races, I'll go to watch races. But when I go to drive, I want to drive, not sit in the stands and watch someone else having fun, especially when it is at my expense.
     
  18. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    im embarrassed to be original poster of this thread. a car club is for fun not political fighting. its ok to post ideas on how to make club better but i also agree mods should shut this down if fighting doesnt stop
     
  19. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Is this comment about the last two posts because I didn't detect any political fighting in them. I say let people make their commenta. Why are you in such a hurry to shut things down?

    What's really unfortunate about this situation is not the discussions about it but the original actions which led to this discussion.

    Bob S.
     
  20. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    the last 2 posts were fine with suggestions to run a better track day. im embarrassed bc my wife was reading some of this and felt these arguments were very immature and geeky (she didnt phrase it with such polite terms though)
     
  21. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Well geeky is an interesting adjective in this context ...

    Bob S.
     
  22. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    #47 95spiderman, Apr 3, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010
    in that a bunch of successful, adult men arguing over who's going to make the rules for their club is pretty nerdy. its something the 'little rascals' used to do. they would settle it by putting on a show
     
  23. staatsof

    staatsof Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    So now were nerdy too? ;>))
     
  24. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #49 enjoythemusic, Apr 6, 2010
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    Guys, this all sounds like it is time to leave while the getting is good. Time to boycott FCA events imho. Vote with your dollars and cars and never attend an FCA event. Too much BS it seems and this type of thing usually spills over to events and maybe even onto the track.

    You guys should then support SCDA www.scda1.com . Ian Prout run GREAT events, EXTREMELY well organized and fair in track time. Many in the New England know Ian or his dad, who is a great driver education/instructor in his own right.

    SACDA Schedule below and you can get DISCOUNT PRICING if you attend multiple events.

    Next Event:

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    Watkins Glen International April 27 - $295
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    Monticello Motor Club - Full Track May 17 - $345
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    Lime Rock Park July 5 "Unmuffled"; Experienced Drivers Only; 9 AM to 1:30 PM - $345
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    http://www.scda1.com/schedule
     
  25. pad

    pad Formula 3

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    Full Name:
    Paul Delatush
    Marc, it’s not so much the changing of the ESR directorship, and more importantly, the Track Chair, but how the changes were made. As in most cases, all is not what it seems. Others are involved; some pulling strings. And a few of people were unfairly thrown under the bus. As you can probably tell, the net effect is a lot of p#%%ed off members.

    For the record, Bob Coates did not call for the meeting, nor did he advocate the demise of the ESR. The meeting was an open forum and everyone spoke his or her minds. Motions were made and voted on. The decisions were almost unanimous (only 3 nays on 1 point). 38+ ESR track participants want things the way they were.

    As you correctly pointed out, it's just a club. And when it stops being fun, you make a change. So rather than get into a political p#%%ing contest, it just makes sense to pack the trailer and go elsewhere.
     

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