I stumbled across this on eBay....
I stumbled across this on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-Mondial-308-328-Supercharger-kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem19bb257995QQitemZ110513977749QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_822wt_1165 That's about 1/5 what people charge for 348 turbo kits. I emailed Carl and he is gung ho to build a 348 version of the kit. The supercharger looks pretty trick - finest Oz technology. (Right Pap?) Anyway, he said that he just needs someone to bring him a car and leave it for 60 days. Neither I nor my car are ready for this so someone else step up and get the bugs worked out for me, OK!? Here's a page from Carl's regular website about the charger: http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/raptorsuperchargers.php
Interesting bit of kit. A blower, thats the way to go. **** that turbo ****! Trouble is, there isnt the room at the front of the 348 engine to mount on a centrifugal blower on it like the one in that pic on the 308/328 engine. I used to have the pics of a adapter plate made for the back of the 348 engine that was used to mount a blower on. Just have to try and find those pics again. I think I have them, cant remember now. Anywho, good luck trying to fit that blower on a 348. They make bulk amounts of power very easily. Would be nice to see a purpose built kit made for the 348.
I wonder - there might be room if the blower was turned around so that the impeller was facing the rear of the car. I think on a 348 you'd want two of them, one for each bank. I see that they can be picked up in Oz for 2200 AuD each direct from the factory. http://www.raptorsc.com.au/products.php When I'm ready to do this, I'll let you know... It's going to be a while.
I recall that car, there was also a video of it floating around on YouTube. The locking nut on the back of the clutch housing was modified to run a pulley which drove dual superchargers - pretty clever. The next problem on a kit like this is what to do about the fuel injectors; the stock units really don't have much overhead. And who wants to risk running lean on a FI car? KaBoom!
That's what they make wide band O2 sensors for. Connect the O2 sensor to a cheap megasquirt ECU so I can log the O2 sensor's output, and know if I have a problem before it can cause damage. There's probably an easier way to log it, but I don't know...
I would love to see this in a 348! Quick someone go buy that 125K mile 348 and send it over there. How much Hp would we get on it? Cheers!
Trust me, one blower is enough. We have Aussie GM "HSV Commodores" here that run one blower, moderate boost that are a 6L gen 4 engine that put out 400KW+ without breaking a sweat. I have a mate with a Vortech blower on his HSV and it runs 382KW at the rear wheels now. Its probably the fastest car I have ever been. Engine is stock, just bolted on that blower, injectors and had it tuned. Here is the youtube vid of it. 1st dyno run after install. Some more tuning got it to 382KW later on that day. You can hear the blower starting winding up around 30 secs in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV8dWWx2KuM Thats the one. Wouldnt be too hard to make something like that.
I could put the mount on the back of the clutch - lots of room down there. Then put a single blower on the left side of the clutch - since my car is a Mondial it only has the one air intake on the left. Pull unfiltered air into the blower, push it into the air filter, DONE!! Man, that would be so easy!! I have to see pictures of this "bracket"! Whose got them!!!??? I guess that I would have to modify the intake on the side of the body a little bit - put some fine mesh screen over it or something. OK, realistically, I would probably just mount a big a$$ cone filter right in the air stream coming into the engine compartment from the body side intake. Route the other end of the tube with the cone filter on it to the Raptor, and then out of the Raptor back into the, now empty, air filter box. DONE!! I don't see this costing me more than a grand or so over the cost of the blower. Pap you may get that call sooner than you think!! Hell, I've been looking for an excuse to do a complete tear down on that engine anyway. I'll bet I'll have a good one about 2 weeks after mounting the 'charger.
Id be interested to know how they plan to control fuel management. Even on these older fuel injected models, I doubt a rising rate fuel pressure regular wouldnt be sufficient. The injectors would at least need to be upgraded, and possibly a larger fuel pump.
You'd have to ask "Captain" Carl. I don't think 6psi is going to put a whole lot of strain on the fuel system, but perhaps that's why the kit costs more than the price of the blower, i.e. a set of injectors and whatever else to make it work. Really the way to find out is to mount a wideband O2 sensor along with some way of logging it's output. These blowers will put out a lot more than 6 psi, but who needs it. You have to re-engineer the whole induction system at great cost, and then, (unless you go totally rad with dual injectors - $$$$), your mileage is bad all the time instead of just when you punch it!
I dont think it would be that hard to make something up either mate. My friends blower kit for his HSV was a 'proper kit' for his car. He is an electrician by trade, but he was still able to bolt on the blower and fit the injectors himself. He then trucked the car to the tune shop the next day and it was going that afternoon. Only took him around 6 hrs of bolting that kit on. Obviously a custom job like yours is A LOT more work, but its still easy as you dont have to make custom exhaust manifolds fit turbos etc.
The bracket and drive for the blower is the only tricky part. That's obviously got to be a well-engineered custom piece. Once that sucker's down there spinning though, the rest should be relatively easy, especially on my t.
Couple of years ago I talked with Lou on the 308 boards about this. The trick for the 348 is to find a mounting place for the SC and somewhere to get the power to turn it. Fuel delivery is no problem for our engines if you keep boost low. We were thinking 4-6 psi. Our fuel pressure is great, but the fuel lines have a choke point. There is a thread here on addressing that drafted by Group77racing, but the instructions were a bit tough to follow. Still, I did it. You do need to replace the injectors to something more robust, like Mustang 24 pounders or even up to the 30 lb. SVT ones. The trick is the engine management system. We don't have knock sensors so there is the possibilty of catastrophic damage at high rpm. I would not trust our stock chips for this application and I don't know anyone who can program for this application. Maybe Igenere. As for output, plugz and I estimated that a low boost condition would get us at least 60 Hp and torque, maybe 100 if you pushed a bit. That would make our lowly 48's into 355 crushers since our gearing is better at lower speeds until we ran out of gearing at the high end. Heck, buy then our cars would be wandering all over the road since our aerodymincs are underdeveloped. However, speaking of gearing, we do have those weakazzed transmissions that would probably grenade after too many burnouts (who could resist?). Still worth looking at though. I belive the 308 kits were selling for $6-$7 grand.
You will need larger fuel injectors, a larger MAF (or MAFs) that are compatible with BLOW-THRU, the calibration curves for said MAF or MAFs and a way to program it all into the M2.7 Motronic ECU at a minimum. Oh, and the willingness to grenade your motor on the dyno tuning it all. Jim C.
Jim, I think that internal combustion engineering has made more progress than you are giving it credit for. Look at what Carl has done with the 928s. It appears that he knows exactly what he's doing and doesn't seem to have nearly as much trouble mildly boosting these cars as you think. BTW, what the heck is a BLOW-THRU MAF? I mean, how does the MAF know or care whether the air moving through it is being pulled or pushed. Sure, the pressure is greater when it being blown, but I don't think they are going to explode or anything - after all they are a pretty solid piece of plastic. Still, your comments make me think that Carl needs to put up more details about the complete kit. I am going to email him and request details.
This is interesting as I had been talking to a shop here in Phoenix about a turbo setup on my 348. I have looked at some of their custom jobs they have done and they think boost in the 6-8 psi would do and have estimated $2700-$3000 to do. Just been thinking.
This looks like the key to inexpensive safety: http://www.928m.com/parts/boostlimitervalve.php By using a Boost Limiter set nice and low, your engine can be safe without a lot of expensive mods, I think.
That's increadibly cheap!! There's a guy in Sacramento who claims he can turbo a 348, but his quote is $25K. Norwood does them, but he's not cheap either. Of course those guys include a lot of stuff that a quick and dirty wouldn't - low compression pistons and such like. Still, I don't see it - is he using used turbos?
Randy, no offense intended - Ferrari's tend to attract strong personalities - Google me. Oh, and on the "BLOW THRU" maf situation. Yes, a MAF *does* indeed "care". Here's why - air BLOWN THRU a turbo or supercharger can and will contain microscopic traces of oil, which will contaminate the MAF sensor elements - and if those sensor elements are not designed to "handle" oil contamination they will FAIL with regularity. Generic Bosch hot wire and hot film MAF's are NOT designed to handle oil film - they FAIL. MAF's that can handle "BLOW THRU" operation generally have their element enclosed in a thin glass envelope - Hitachi is one manufacturer of those MAF's - there are others. Jim (been force-inducting N/A Bosch-powered cars since 1995) Conforti.
This shop works mostly on VW and sand rails, I picked up a karmann ghia that I've hauled several times already back and forth to Indiana that has been street rodded (I asked why also!) lowered, lots off custom engine parts and turbo. They turbo alot of high end sand rails also, so I asked them about my 348 and this is just the new turbo,they fab the new tubes and powder coat,and brackets but nothing done to engine internals at this price. They have been doing this for years also.
Hi Jim, No offense taken. Now the shoes on the other foot though: you didn't read about the Raptor before you posted. It has NO OIL LINES. Hello? Don't see how it would disperse any oil without a source for same. You got me curious - I will google. Best,
I am still unclear: $3000 covers the turbo and the plumbing? That still sounds awfully low, but maybe they get a better deal on turbos than I am aware of being available. Will they plumb it so that you are pulling the air throught the MAFs? If not, Jim's comment would certainly apply to your setup.
Jim, the 348 community is still wating for you to come up with a tuning option for these engines. What about your adaptation of the ECU chips to take PC programming via cable inputs to the sockets? Sounded great to me. Of course, if you want to tackle this SC project, I'm game. Might even ship you my car too. I love the work you did with BMW's (I had your 1995 M3 chip). Vince
