were they not competitive or were they not allowed to compete? Rubens did OK against button and is doing ok against Hulk and he's no spring chicken...so how much better than now would he probably have been when he drove with ferrari? maybe Nico really is 'just that good' maybe MS has lost a LOT of speed. we'll never know, really.
yes....BUT....God is supposed to be capable of overcoming a 3 yr vacation, a competitive teammate, and a car that doesn't flatter him.
Well that's just an indication of how much of his success was down to the amount of natural talent he actually has or how much of it was down to relentless testing, having every resource at your disposal and a teammate that can't actually race you. I tend to think it's more the latter, myself.
...And what was the rest of the field for the 7 years he won the WDC considered to you? Perhaps one of these other GOD lovers might have an answer?
91- Piquet (3-time World Champion) 92- Patrese (multiple GP winner) 93- Brundle (even against competitive teammates he was competitive. In fact, he comrehensively blew away Patrese and Brundle and was a match for Piquet for raw speed and race pace in 91)
I've already answered this, or it might have been in another thread . MS and Ferrari won because all the other big teams were in a lull until Renault got their act together, thus: McLaren - Once Hakinen left they didn't have a top notch driver, and they lost their way with their car or had reliability car issues. Renault - Only got it together for a couple of years, which interestingly enough are when they beat Ferrari!!! Williams - Started the full and proper decline, probably never to return. So who did MS beat? In 2000 he won fair and square against Hakenin but I do remember some squabblings about the legality of the Ferrari ... 2001 either Hakenin had left or he had lost interest due to having a child and Ferrari walked it. MS was not required, would have won the WDC with their number 2 driver. 2002, even more convincing because absolutely no opposition ... MS not required again. 2003, oops Ferrari fncked up the car and MS had to work hard to get this one. But the car fnck up evened the field and made it slightly interesting. 2004, another 2002 when I could have won the WDC in that car 2005 and 2006, finally another team stood up and gave Ferrari some competition ... As I've always said I'd give MS 4 deserved championships: '95, 2000, 2002 (he can't have 2004 as well because he needs to loose one for using his team mate as a blocking strategy in races) and 2003. So I put Prost above MS in my driver standings, but yes Prosts last in the Williams was a walk but all others were real fights with either top notch world drivers champions in good cars competing against him or actually in his own team, such as Senna and Lauda. For many years there was no other WDC on the grid when MS raced ... that is a big indication on how weak the opposition was. Pete
Piquet was coming to the end of his career, infact 1991 was his very last year. Patrese, yes he won a few races in his extremely long career but only when the car was all dominating and his team mate had already fallen off the track, so hardly a competitive team mate. Brundle ... another uncompetitive team mate. Was very fast in F3, but a field filler in F1. I rest my case. Thanks for providing the facts to back it up . Pete
Love all the if/come, when/where/why/what if heresay in this thread.... (read: hate) The guy won 7 WDC's because he either out drove or made fewer mistakes than everybody else for 7 F1 seasons for 2 different teams.... Consult the actual record book and you'll find it's true.
I'm just saying that MS became a legend that was bigger than his driving ability thanks to the dominance of the Ferrari cars of that period. Yes he's a great driver but being in the right car at the right time gave him most of those 7 WDC championships with a team mate blocking others from being able to attempt to challenge him. Thus MS's return was always going to burst the in correct bubble in most peoples minds ... Pete
oh, c'mon..you know F1 is not that simplistic... it's easy to outdrive everyone, or make far less mistakes when your ride is far and away superior. about half of those WDC's were LARGELY because no one else built a car worth a spit...
Records don't record the true facts. Its how you win that matters ... when MS is an old man he will regret '94, '97 at Spain, forcing Frentzen off into the wall at Montreal, 2006 Monaco and he will regret forcing his team mates to block other challengers, because he was good enough to win fair and square. So yes my admiration for the man's ability has been lost, too much cheating and Monaco showed how low he is prepared to go. Pete
I think the reliability Ferrari enjoyed during that time was enviable then and now. That was one of their big advantages. You don't know how MS would have gone had a dozen ex world champs been there....or Senna not died...etc etc. You can hypothesis until the cows come home. I don't have a problem with Ferrari having team orders with MS/RB either. It's a team sport and one does what's needed. I don't understand why the other teams don't do it (or say they don't) I also suspect that Ferrari paid MS the big bucks and gave him the no 1 status for a reason, and it's not because of his good looks! Tifosi is also correct that if it weren't for Nico doing so well, we'd just think the Merc was crap....but we could say that for every team. what if the ferrari last year was only driven by Fisi and badoer? Or Kimi and Massa had been driving for Force India? (considering how slow fisi was in the ferrari and how fast he was in the FI it could have been very interesting). Would Nico be faster in the Red Bull than Vettel? Everyone rates Webber poorly, and Vettel's only a little bit faster, so maybe Vettel's a bit crap too. There are some things that we'll just never know. So many ifs, so little time. The reality is that MS won 7 championships.....and if he'd stayed, he might have won more. Of course it's all about timing...and while some might say he had no competition, I'm not convinced that's the case, but if it is, then good luck to him. We'll never really know what goes on.
FWIW, Hakinennen recently said that the competition in F1 is on an entirely different level compared to his days. That would explain a few things. It is not like Hekinin has anything to gain by stating that. But Hakinnen also subsequently stated that he believes in a Schumacher win this season. I think Hekinnen is either out of his mind with that statement or, more likely, he's just being nice to his friend. ;-)
Fans evaluate drivers by their podium positions. Teams evaluate them using telemetry. Mercedes knows exactly what is going on between Nico and Michael; make no mistake about it. It was pretty sad and pretty clear that Michael didn't drive well in the rain while Nico could. There is no excuse except that he is still off the pace. I hope he picks up his game but am being realistic.
Actually I wonder if MS's lack of hard fighting for position is due to him having the discipline to finish out each race, no matter what, since that is the only way to build up mileage experience in the car (with the lack of testing). ...having said all that, all MS fans are understandably worried about the form he has shown to this point...it is what it is... Frank
Perception is indeed everyone's reality most of the time. Schuey is no fool, he is not playing into what others have to say. Gosh I can't think of a more interesting season......
More interesting than when MS was winning.. I don't think Bernie liked it actually when MS was in his hay day leading by the first corner, or his team mate for that matter, because it was... game over, no good for the show.
