just for a summary understanding about what you have done Russ : 1 replace the K Jtronic with Weber carbs 2 change the piston compression : did You change the pistons ? What else have you done ? did you change air admission ? cam setting ? I would love to have a 300 / 320 HP car. I think it would be the perfect power for this car
Getting back to the topic of the thread, there is no question that the maximum amounts of hp will be made by forced induction, and except for the exceptionally well done Norwood turbos ($$) the bolt on supercharger kits do that the best. Of course, the #1 nod has to be given to Mark's previous engine, but that is really a one-off belonging in either a Engineering Hall of Fame or a Ripley's Believe It or Not Museum. The total final package of what I've done will probably end up at 320 - 330 hp after I finish tweaking, which I feel is perfect, as for me perfect includes the heritage, personality and sound of a Weber carburreted Ferrari, as well as the simplicity, reliability and diy friendliness. It also just looks better. To recap the primary build: JE 10.5 pistons heads ported and polished with larger intake valves high lift cams, near stock durations 44 DCNF w/ 38mm venturis That all said, if you look at the history and costs of the individual phases this went through, the best improvement for cost was simply bolting on a set of commonly available 40DCNF-12 carbs w/ 34mm venturis. It cost only about $3k bolted on, and had been bulletproof reliable for 290 hp for a few years before I got the wild hair to port the heads. While the pistons and porting added a lot, the cost there is also quite high, suggesting the best return for the dollar would be simply the Webers. The K-jetronic, for all its brilliance, robs about 20 - 30 hp just from airflow resistance. This is what they had to do to meet tightening laws without much development time. Of course with forced induction, K-jet can deliver a lot more hp. But in its original guise as a small na V-8, Ferrari Engineer Rocci's engine was originally designed for Webers, and with those it seems pretty happy.
I know that the 928motorsports kit is designed to suit the K-Jet system. However, I have a 328 motor with EFI and ignition run by a Motec M48, and I am now thinking of supercharging. What approach do you think I should take from here? Cheers, Grahame
I'm still very happy with my 928motorsports supercharger. I have just been driving, canyon carving and tracking it, total reliability. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcJ-TkIKyhU Here is our original thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123458&highlight=sc+kit Carl @ 928 has alot of $$ tied up in R&D and I know he still has parts on the shelf, it's just that response to the ferrari kits has been underwhelming. The Aussie RaptorV charger head is definatley still avail and a bulletproof product. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Carl offers one more in "the bay" now, who pulls the trigger ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supercharger-Kit-for-Ferrari-Mondial-308-and-328_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ010QQitemZ200331037521QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
I wonder if their support would be equal to what one would hope now that it's an "ebay product." I am very interested but since I just had to fork over $5500 bucks to Uncle Sam that I did not expect, I am no longer in a position to buy one of these kits as I had planned to do in May. I had 7k set aside for just this purpose but now I only have $1500 so, to paraphrase the soup nazi, "NO Supercharger for YOU!"
I was/am interested too but ordering from the States kept me from going true with it. I do like the engineering philosophy they adapted: no need for any permanent changes to the original engine, purely bolt on. Especially with the current euro/dollar ratio it's actally not that expensive either i guess. But anyway, the distance will keep us apart i'm afraid..
Steve, I think the most important thing is to have a good mechanician here that you trust in. When I say good means very good. The one who has real diagnostic abilities, and who wont always say : "it is the fault of the supercharger".
i'm me own mechanic and i do trust myself... it's more the backup thing that i might need when i do encouter some trouble, with installation or in the future
It has been said that the final parts cost of this supercharger tend to be 12k, due to other things to be mounted on the car. What have You experienced RVIDRCI ? And the clutch ? Is it ok with this amount of HP ? IS the Engine cooling powerfull enough ? I am very interested with the kit but would like to have these experience returns before doing it.
Olivier, Cost on the 928kit should be well under 9k at the high end now that we have done the R&D. I personally have about that invested, and have done many things beyond the basic workable stage one kit, which is a solid and dependable street or light track use kit. The kit is $5900 now I think, and you will want to invest in some data logging air/fuel ratio equip (LM1 $400). You will have some dyno costs to pay (maybe another $300 or so). If your car is in good shape, with a euro spec K-jet fuel distributor, you may be done there. Add in $500 for incidentals, hoses, cooler spark plugs, maybe new injectors, "while your in there's" etc., and you are at about $ 7k +/-. Worst case senario, you may have to have your fuel distributor rebuilt and enhanced ($450 USD), and replace your fuel pump with a high pressure and volume unit (Bosch 044 unit, $400 USD). I went further and added CDI ignition with boost retard ($500 USD), an aditional adjustable blow off valve ($200) and some trick aluminum and silicone intake tubes ($200). I also am running redline 5w40 synthetic oil, and water wetter in the cooling system ( $150 USD). So that is just at 9k total, and my car is TOTALLY reliable and very fast. I keep up with 348s and 355s no problem. No adjustments to the fuel injection or supercharger drive have been made in the last year of tracking and canyon carving. No heating issues, I still have my original stock clutch (though I plan to upgrade that, the stock unit is at the top of it's holding ability in a very hard launch in 2nd gear on the street, but I have no issues at the track at all. Of course, I have done all of the install work myself, but it was not difficult to do in my garage at home. I'm a handy fellow with tools etc., but I am not a pro Ferrari mechanic by any means, it's totally do-able. So, that is the honest truth on my experience. -Luigi
your experience and your datas are very interesting and usefull for me. thank you very much. I wonder, what was the state of your car before you did that ? what mileage, how many owners...? How would You qualify it mechanicaly ? By the way what model is it ? Is it a 2v or 4v ? Mine is a mondial 3.2 QV 1987. I think I am the third or 4th owner. Before me, maintenance has been done at an average level. In fact when I did the majour service, I had to do many things sup like : new injectors, new seals, new ignition box, new ignition cables, ... Now it is 94000 kms, it runs well, that is all I can say. start cold has to be viewed. What I absolutely dont want is to kill the car by this big amount of extra HP, due to its age and actual worn. Anyway, this charger is very interesting and exciting for our old V8 ladies ! You should make chronos, so that we could update performance datas of all these beautifull vintage cars. I dont say exotic, coz for me (EU, France) a Mustang is exotic. I like this project very much because for me, these 308, mondi and even GT4 are sooo Ferrari !! I dont like very much the 348, 355, F4O and so on... But it is my personnal taste. By the way, look at this typical supercharged V6 FRENCH car... Isnt it beautifull and what do You think about the engine sound ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0dMh1bZLJU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pruyc0LTHn4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7IHYIjFknI&feature=related Thanx again,
Beautiful cars/engines, yes. My 308 is a late 1985 Swiss market Euro (4 valve of course). I bought the car with recent major, @ 27,000 miles on the odometer, and did the supercharger at about 32,000 I think. I have 38,000+ on the car now, and did a timing belt service recently (due to time, not milage). My car was and is in very good condition, with professional service history prior to my purchase. Also, my car had recent California smog/EPA work done (catalytic converters and lambda device) which complicated matters a bit with the supercharger re-work. I no nothing of emissions regulation in France, what equipment if any is on your Mondi, Cats ? Do not worry about the drivetrain and added power. The 308 gearbox and diff are very stout. The weak links are the clutch, and then the axle half shafts. There are cars out there that have put 500-600hp thru the stock 308 drivetrain with no problems, a supercharged 3.2 is no worry drivetrain wise (clutch, maybe). I would make sure your CV's and axles/bearings are in good shape, as well as your motor mounts and silentblock bushings (the dogbone torque rod between the trunk firewall and engine) before supercharging. -L
That sounds great! I just had my supercharger installation dynoed. I am a bit worried about heating, since I log 140degC out the supercharger at 7000rpm, so at present I keep revs lov and have bought the parts for water injection. Therefore the dyno stops at 6400rpm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCzV3hrqNsY As a pure coincidence my clutch release bearing has started making some noise over the last weeks, so this is a great time to upgrade the clutch. What kind of clutch upgrade are you considering? Image Unavailable, Please Login
what type of supercharger are you running and at what boost? I had a roots blower on my QV for a while that was over 125C at 10psi boost (2.38 bar)...I got a flashing "temp out of range" warning at 125C so I don't know the actual number.....but I ran it like that a couple years with no problem. As long as you aren't getting detonation the temp sholdn't be a problem. For the clutch I had the disc re-liner with kevlar based material and used a dayton pressure plate whihc is about 20% stiffer than a 308 unit.
Mark, I'm using a Rotrex Centrifugal blower. Last year I measured 140degC and 1,7BarAbs @7200rpm as shown below whereafter I got worried and increased blower pulley size a bit. I have not made any additional measurements after this modification. Is it unambiguous and easy to hear detonation? /Niels Image Unavailable, Please Login
I wouldn't be worried about the spikes on the graph and the average is below where I was running mine for a couple years...and I wasn't ever gentle with it. nomally you hear it...it sounds like marbles in your engine. It also show up on a dyno run as a lot of violence bouncing on the graph.
nice to see this new stuffs about SC 308. Based on all your experiences, what is the best for F v8 (2v and 4v) : 1/ : vortech or screws ? 2/ : do we need intercooler or not ? Why do you have this 140°C peak, why are You afraid of it ? Would an intercooler have issued that "problem". The Ferrari avi is now available on 928motorsport (for months it was not available) : ftp://12.234.229.133/928MVideos/308SCVideo.mpg Do you think their kit (928motorsport) is good or not ? Did You use it ? Do You have better experience with your "kits" ? cheers all,
I'm still a rookie in this game, so I'm sure that the more experienced drivers in this forum are in a much better position to answer the questions. Please correct me where I'm wrong in the following... Regarding the compressor brand I had no doubt at all: I know the Rotrex compressors from other aplications. They work. They are very efficient. And the quality and reliability is great. Since I wanted to use a Rotrex and nothing else I had no other choice than to design the installation myself. Novitec uses Rotrex in their 599, why should I settle for less Choice between screw and centrifugal type seems to depend on driving style. At high revs the centrifugal wins. At low revs the screw compressor wins. Ferraris are supposed to scream at high revs, sooo....the winner is the centrifugal supercharger, right? Add to this the measured linear dyno curve and consequently flat torque curve, I'd say a Rotrex centrifugal is the right choice. Intercooler or not? MkE has yesterday convinced me that my temperatures are ok and wont compromise engine life. So up to 340Hp no intercooler seems needed if you use a Rotrex supercharger. (The less efficient the supercharger, the higher outlet temperature for a given boost, so maybe some other types of superchargers have thermal trouble, already at lower boost??) However, I intend to add power substantially beyond 340Hp. I can see my powercurve flattening around 6400rpm. There is (still) sufficient fuel supply, so the flattening must be due to thermal expansion and reduced air density. Without cooling I don't think I can pass 400hp. I have two options: Adding an intercooler or installing water injection. I'll go for water injection as a first try. Stuff is bought, I got the water reservoir yesterday, and there is an upcoming weekend for some quality time in the workshop. Furthermore - My clutch pull bearing has started making noise, so this is the perfect time to add some horses and "scientifically test" the limit of a well working stock clutch plate...Right? Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thank you Erik. Your summary of the situation concerning your SC is very good and full of informations for me.
