Stirling Moss - can't argue with him

. There is absolutely no doubt that many of MS's WDC should be considered a team effort and his number 2 driver sacrificed his own career to help MS win.

The main thing I've always not respected about MS is the not allowing a competitive team mate to drive along side him.

I bet he thought Rosberg was going to be easy to beat ... but finally with a team that is not telling the "number 2 driver" to pull over and let MS pass, MS is looking decidedly average.

Oh and to counter this:

Yes he is widely known, and yes he has the statistics on his side but he is not the best driver the sport has ever known. Moss can make these comments because Moss is one of the few that can honestly challenge MS as the sports best ever driver. Not many people know that Stirling Moss over the years has one 1/4 of ALL races that he has entered, and I'm not just taking F1 here, I'm talking every single race.

Nurvolari, Gilles Villeneuve, Moss, Clark, Stewart and Prost ...

MS's stats are so good because Ferrari made a dominating car (while McLaren were restructuring and all others teams had their finger up their @rses, except Renault for a couple of years) and used his team mate to control other competitors. Note MS and Ferrari did NOT always win when McLaren had a good car and Hakenin ... thus should we now consider Hakenin the worlds best driver also?
Pete

 

lol..he hasn't been close enough to pass!

 

Ferrari was not the best in 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2003 2005, and 2006 during MS's previous years before coming out of retirement yet he still racked up MANY wins.

Any driver's stats will be good because they had a good/dominant car given to them. You think Senna's titles/wins with McLaren came with a **** car? Ha...

 

Very true. He said the 7 titles were "misleading".

 

+1 Its more the car than the driver at times. Ask JB about last year. Car was class of the field and a driver most had figured was smooth, but never going to be WDC was in fact the champion.

As Mansell has said before, there are a group of drivers, who in the right car, can be WDC. The RIGHT car.

 

Comparing drivers across different eras is fun but, in the end, pointless. Too many variables.

 

+1 Ayrton said the same thing. The car must be an extension of the drivers body. Then there are some drivers who can have the right car, but still won't win. Schuey has already proven he is a winner in the right car, as has Fernando, Hamilton, Button, Button, and of course the late great Senna RIP, you are the man.

As a side note, I find myself repeatedly watching the youtube video of Ayrton chewing out a young Schuey for an incident, and then climbing back straight through the crowd like some primate who just clubbed someone and is now leaving to go about his day. awesome lol

 

link?

 

This whole pointless debate over Schumacher that has been brewing is no different than most subjects nowadays in that people begin with their feelings and then source the data/quotes/snippets to support their view. Here's a question for all those out there lining up for or against Schumacher: How many of you presently hold an opinion of him opposite of the one you held during his 7-title career? My suspicion is very few lifelong MS fans are suddenly lighting their torches, nor are many lifelong haters hanging his posters over their beds.

Schumacher won 7 titles driving for two different teams during a decade of domination rarely seen in any sport.

Schumacher was integral in resurrecting Ferrari's Formula 1 team from midfield laughers to the pinnacle of the sport. He didn't do it all alone, but it's debatable as to whether they would have achieved the success they did without his participation.

Schumacher owns nearly every F1 record of significance.

So, while it's a fair assessment to say he's lost a step from the days of his prime, this does not swing open the doors to all this nonsense about him being "over-rated" or "in the right car" all those years of success. Any Champion worth his weight will say part of being a Champion is putting yourself in a position to win. And when Michael switched to Ferrari, that was bold move given the situation of the time. I think Moss has made some spot-on points--I too question the motivation right now since Schumacher has little to gain by racing again other than to get out of the house every other weekend. But the Michael Schumacher we're watching right now is not the same one we watched in his 20s and 30s. That said, in the spirit of the intelligence/wisdom threads, I would not be surprised to see him utilize his experience and regain some form. But again, it comes down to his motivation.

 

*using my best Emeril Lagesse voice* BAM. Senna chewing young Schuey's a$$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ2RWaO7NeI

 

And I totally agree with this.

Note MS was still one of the very best.

BTW: Like MS in 96 and 97 we have all watched Senna perform miracles in poor McLarens, so again you judge a driver when he is in a poor car (which is why we have not fully judged LH yet, although he did okay last year when the car was not the fastest).

Anybody could have won the 2001, 2002 and 2004 WDC, even Barrichello ... but the insecure MS would not even allow RB to challenge him.
Pete

 

This is a good question.

My view and respect of MS changed during his reign. I even forgave him originally for the '94 incident and defended him against the traction control cheating allegations in '95 and mavelled at his ability in '96 and '97. I even thought many were too hard on him with the '97 incident because JV dive bombed him and he paniced because his tyres had died.

But I started to dislike him with this continue "my team mate must snck me off in every race" attitude, even in 2002 where they were winning every race by a lap or 2, and then when he parked the car at Monaco I fully appreciated the complete lack of sportsmanship this man has. One can only imagine what other things he has done to get those 7 WDC ... I wouldn't want to share a race track with him.
Pete

 

Is that why he raced for Mercedes-Benz and Maserati? LOL

 

He raced for them because the British did not have a competitive car. Note he never was a works Maserati F1 driver, but ran his own car with his own mechanic.

He did test the V16 BRM and quite rightly said it was a piece of **** .
Pete

 

I still enjoy MS. Im in Germany. Its hard not to. Also his situation was unique. The car was right, developed mainly for him. His team mate was limited. The entire situation worked for him. The team had superb management to begin with.

Also how many drivers mention the car..well...most!!! They all say if they were in a better car/ team they would show what they could do. That part of it is old news.

The question is how many will actually capitalize on the opportunity when the right CAR and TEAM present themselves to the driver.

 

Very true. This Saturday it will have been 16 years since there was a driver in F1 for whom I consistently felt passionate. I was excited when Jacques Villeneuve switched F1, and I was excited when Michael switched to Ferrari. (Jacques fizzled quickly) Throughout Schumi's domination I tried to appreciate that I was able to witness for myself a magical era in the sport, occasionally in person. I enjoyed watching Schumacher race, but like others there were moments that tarnished the experience. Primarily the finish-fixing nonsense and his Monaco parking job. So for him to come back out of retirement is just another interesting element to the sport, something to watch and see. To me, his accomplishments are a closed book and whatever he does or doesn't do at this point are irrelevant.

 

Moss QUOTE :"Better to lose honorably in a British car than win in a foreign one".


Well, he sure doesn't sound like he was too fond of those "foreign" cars, wouldn't you agree mate.

 

Now he's going a bit too far, maybe his brain went without oxygen for too long.


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/28042010/23/moss-schumacher-past-damaging-achievements.html


Claiming Schumachers only achievement was bringing British engineers to Ferrari to save them ! What a load of hogwash, or should I say rubbish, he loses credibility with those types of comments.

If the British were Ferrari's saviors, Barnard would have led them to glory with Prost. The fact is that Ferrari hired the right men for the job, from all over the globe, including many Italians, most notable was their engine designer who would design that solid V10 that powered Schumy to 5 championships.

 

No he is actually correct.

This is true, but the credit really goes to JT not MS. Basically the Benetton team ended up at Ferrari. This finally stopped the BS Italian internal conflicts that had always held them back before.

He very nearly did. If Senna had not taken Prost out at Suzuki in 1990 (I think), Prost would have won the WDC for Ferrari. Instead when Prost criticised the car they sacked him ... idiots.

JT did this.

It took JT to get the Italian teams head out of their @rse and to finally drop the v12 for the better compromise of a v10.

Like it or not, the British are F1.
Pete

 

Beg to differ

Luca was responsible, not JT, and only a select few came from Benetton, another misconception.

Barnard didn't get it done, period. The car was crap, and not getting better, this was an Englishman who didn't know how to run a F1 team.

JT was hired by Luca and reported to him, Ferrari is responsible, sorry.

Like I said, Ferrari hired Jean, a Frenchmen, and he reported to Luca. An Italian was put in charge of engine design and continued for over 10 years. A South African was hired for chassis design. Of course a German Driver and his old pal Ross the Brit came a year later. Truly a multi-national organization, anyone arguing to the contrary is way off base.

Up your bum with that statement mate.

 

First of all Barnard's job was not to run the team, he was the designer not the team manager. Second the car was not cr@p, the team was ... and at that stage it was still run by an Italian. No car can be cr@p and challenge for the WDC in the very last race. It was the stupid Italian (at that time) managed team that got rid of the best driver at the time in Prost, because he dared to say the car needed improvement. Cars always need improvement ... always! This guy won 4 WDC's and the stupid Italians decided he was an idiot and sacked him. Fncken idiots!

I admit Barnard was a fool for trying to move Ferrari to England, he should have relocated to Italy and designed the car there ... but as F1 is 99% located in Britain one could understand where he was coming from, but it was a poor decision.

Okay for the first time in history the Ferrari racing team was controlled by a non-Italian in the case of JT. Luca does not make day to day decisions and I'm pretty damn sure Luca did not say: build a v10. I'm also pretty sure that JT would have done the hiring of HIS team as he was the manager of the team. What Luca as a top level manager/director did right was hiring JT and giving him enough rope to create a successful team. Luca deserves credit for this.

Name all the teams that are not located in Britain?

I think it's just Renault and Ferrari, but I think Renault might actually have an office in Britain ... not sure.

There was plenty of times in F1 history where the only team outside England was Ferrari.
Pete
ps: Anybody that thinks that the Italians are good at management or racing cars only needs to watch a few recorded rounds of the A1GP. Remember also that all the cars are exactly the same. They are hopeless, infact the round I went to in Sydney they didn't even finish a race. While they are fncking around trying to get their head's out of their @rse and get the car to work, New Zealand, Britain, Germany and ocassionally Australian teams are out their winning the races.

Ferrari build wonderful cars, but no way would I have an Italian running any race team I was involved in ... too much passion and emotion.

 

Hardly poor performance by John by any means.
Pete

 

Admittedly they let John do pretty much what he wanted, but then when he left they slumped again until JT took over running the team from I assume Cappelli.
Pete

 

Aquapuss, thank you very much for posting a wonderfully refreshing and intelligent analysis by the greatest driver (and sportsman!) to have ever graced a F1 circuit.

And your thread title says it all.