Well that's the thing: they are all sequential...except 504. The next highest confirmed left hand drive Euro chassis number is...AM120406 which is a superb car in Germany...so 504 has always been a bit of an odd duck being out of sequence like that. There's another question for Cozza on my list... best regards, Marc
Interesting, thanks for the info! I will think about the mod, but I'm also thinking of checking the seal and replacing it if that's necessary and possible, and leaving the box in place. Because yes, although I try to avoid heavy rainfall, I do sometimes hit some rain, and indeed got the tail end out while accelerating hard last year! Spectacular but not the way I prefer to drive the Khamsin (or any other car).
You are most welcome AMLC your solution is of course very logical! in other news two Khamsins have just changed hands: in the US a 5 speed project that its owner was not able to restore and was wise enough to not start: it is now the property of a very wise and knowledgeable Maseratista whio will be able to determine if it is a project or a parts car. I would dearly like to see it saved. More news on it soon. Another 5 speed khamsin, a very good one has just changed hands in Europe between two expert Maserati collectors who DRIVE and it is therefore a happy car but nevertheless the new owner is going to do quite a bit to it. He will probably report on that himself. Finally this weekend Bonhams is auctioning AM120US1298 in the Connecticut auction it is one of the very best Khamsins in the US, fully restored by Gary Bobileff a few years ago so it will be intersting to see what it does. The European market is much more awake to the rise in interest and values in Khamsins than the US one so time for the US fence sitters to act: already over 30 of the 100 US 5 speed Khamsins have gone to Europe which is sad...for the US. I was involved in the first mentioned but not at all in the other two. best regards, Marc
You are right George. The Merak is also one of the models that are priced low in US compared to GT4 and Urraco. In Europe a mint Merak SS may fetch higher price than a mint GT4, and US are "leaking" Maserati's from the 70's. When will the US market be dried up so much that prices are at the right level? Shipping from US is cheep, and the total cost of import taxes and shipping to Norway (where I live) would be the same if the orign was Italy or US. The ugly bumpers and air pumps may be replaced with Euro-parts. Is it the LHM that scares the Americans away from these fine cars?
Since this is a Khamsin thread I will write within that context. LMH, I believe is just a question of getting comfortable with this technology. After all this was cutting edge when Citroen introduced it. Many people just want Girling, that is what they are knowledgable about. I have Girling, that is what I have driven all my life. Thanks to passionate people like Marc these cars are able to survive and grow in number via restorations. Most, but not all Maserati cars kept the LHM till their last day of production. Marc's web site is a tremendous asset to the Khamsin community! We have a very nice Khamsin here in Atlanta, converted to a high quality Euro style. Yes, it is for sale, and will most probably end up across the pond from us. Cars getting shipped here and there. I guess that is just the life pulse of commerce. Ciao, George
There are a few factors that cause for US spec cars not getting to the price levels of Eur cars, generally speaking. When these cars were new, the relative value it represented to its' first owner was vastly different, and so was the level at which it was looked after. A lot of the cars of US origin had a very hard early life, with little maintenance and cheap re-sprays. In Europe one typically had to work many more hours for the purchase, and thus the sense of investment was greater, and the cars got looked after at a much higher level. Then there's the obvious effect of the exchange rate: we've seen cars move accross the pond back and forth. The Euro has lost quite a bit on the USD lately, so the export will likely slow down somewhat. I suspect that a car like the one restored by Gary Bobileff will fetch an equally high price in the US as it would in Europe, once all the costs of shipping and importing are added. I also believe that the Khamsin is just at the point of being 'discovered' as a valuable asset to a collection and good examples will exponently increase in value. Restoring one from the ground up will likely cost considerably more than buying a top quality one today.
Hi Marc This mod I have not seen but the reason for the original location is cooling. A number of other cars which use this unit have ignition problems caused by the unit overheating. Personally I would leave the ignition unit in the front check that the rubber cover is in tact. If and a big if the values of these cars does go up, originality will be worth a lot more than practicality. My 2 Cents A good example of Practicality over originality, a 275 GTB here in OZ had numerious discreet mods and I mean very discreet mods towards practicality , the car was serviced but a "ferrari specialist and every one of those mods were reversed and it included an engine built brakes ignition. I recon the new owner was ripped off. but this is the extent to which collectors will go for the right car. the mods were dicovered as the engine had the incorrect coloured gaskets!!! Graeme
Some may have already posted this and I missed it but in case it wasnt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1n_sI5LCVM&feature=related And doesnt thi soud fabulious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkpiAG81-xc&feature=related Graeme
What ??? These were considered very expensive cars here as well at that time. Once the cars value slips below restoration expenses they ALL get the short shrift. When it came to Maserati in the mid 1970's they just were not that popular with the buying public here. The big bumpers didn't help. The LHM was and still is a huge turn-off. You just can't escape those two facts. Then add the oil crisis and by the the mid 1980s a lot of these cars were looking very neglected. This was made even worse by the fact that they were hard to re-sell at high prices and at 10+ years old the newer offerings from Ferrari and Lamborghini (though quite sparse) were faster and fresher looking. So they languished until the very late 80's when some got fluffed-up a few got genuinely restored and pricing went ballistic for a short time. A few of us bought good examples back in the earlier 1980's and enjoyed them a lot. Mine was not cheap at $30K in 1987 but it certainly was a lot less than the new Testarossa. It wasn't because Americans just had so much money that these were like Fords. But this does remind me of an interesting conversation I had with Ing. Alfieri at Concourso Italiano in 92(??) when he looked at my Bora and exclaimed that it looked better than new! Some of you may know that Bora's in original state have the worst finished engine compartments of any of there cars ever. There are portions with no paint and just undercoating on the body/frame. The heat shielding such as it is looks very poorly executed. So when I asked why they didn't attend to such things he said and I'm paraphrasing here: "We didn't worry about such things because we expected out customers to buy a new car every 4 years. I never dreamed I'd be seeing all of these cars again at a show such as this". It would seem that Maserati themselves considered they disposable items. it also explains a lot. Bob S.
Excellent points, Bob. I have heard the same rational from several car makers, they just never considered that the cars would survive past a 5 or 6 year mark. What were they thinking? Ciao, George
The last comments very much nailed the situation. Let me add another interesting future thought. Have a look at the age of the people who own historic cars they are historic them selves( I count my self in that so as not to affend any one and I appologise now if I have). The New generation from my observation dont care about old cars. If its not new they dont care or want to know about it. Unless a car is collectable and is seen as an alternative to other investments, museums are about the only place most of these cars will be found. I truly hope some will prove me wrong. Graeme
I've heard this before as it pertains to American classics such as the earlier Packards, Chryslers, Cords Dusenbergs etc. The owners at that time of such manificient cars were all passing on but others came a long and showed real interest in these cars so maybe it will happen again. Objectivly speaking they are magnificient pieces of art/machinery. Whereas a 66 GTO ... I'm not so sure. Maserati isn't in as strong a place as Ferrari or even a Miura. Except for their race cars and some of the earlier and rarer GT cars Like the 5000GT. The way the world economy is looking it may be a moot point. Bob S.
Customers didn't get the chance to buy a new one because Maserati stopped building these cars and started making very different automobiles. Since Khamsin and Bora went out of production nothing Maserati produced even came close, I think.
Well that depends on what you were looking for. By the mid 1980s those 10 year old cars were still classically exotic looking and I enjoyed the hell out of mine but they were old cars compared with how the modern ones at that time performed in every day traffic etc. I also bought a Biturbo at that time and I have thoroughly enjoyed that car as well. It's very different though. It's much lighter, more modern, quieter and quicker if not quite as fast. I like the styling on that car as too (same designer as the Bora) but it's no where as beautiful as the Khamsin, Bora or Merak. Not nearly as expensive either. Is the current Gran Tourismo so much different in concept than the Khamsin was in it's day? Bob S.
there are still people with money and lots of the stuff. and their not making any more old goody's. sure us geezers are a dying breed but money will always be available for top line items. look at Monaco. a new building going up will sell the units for 80000 euros a sq. meter! all the real money people are sitting and waiting. an 8.5 million $ horse farm was sole at courthouse steps today. they were trying to get 5.5 million. i have not heard results yet. horse industry found itself running on borrowed $$. thats over. these new wealth countries will keep the high end high. China, India brick and brack countries
+1 These cars have a character/style that is so unique. Gotta love those Weber carburetors [I grew up driving fuel injection no less]. The current and upcoming generation of car buyers look at the 70s cars, even the 60s cars for their styling, the lack of corporate controlled computer based drive by wire programs as a refreshing departure from the majority flock of mundane pedestrian city carts. These cars will be cared for by the forthcoming generations no doubt there. Just my 2 pesos worth! Ciao, George
To compare a Khamsin to a Gran Tourismo is difficult. The Khamsin was bespoke and based on the its own chassis with coach built body. The Gran Tourismo is half Ferrari is built to a price. A modern version of a Khamsin would be a direct competitor to a cross between a 612 and a 599. The cost of the modern equivilent would be 8 or 900 k USD or as they were here more money than a RR. The Current low production cars that fit that sort of bill now are Pagani Zonda's and Ruf CTR3's. Graeme
No there's not cutting edge race engineering throughout the Gran Tourismo but it's no slouch either. Now the LHM application was the Khamsin's exotic technology. There certainly wasn't anything race oriented on that car. The Gran Tourismo has a pretty wonderful engine by Ferrari standards. It's certainly fast and reasonably agile. A number of people on here have wondered why they should spend the extra money for a 599 too. The Khamsin had a 1950's era V8 which is an engine I like a lot but they couldn't afford to design a newer power plant. Ing. Alfieri wanted a flat 12 for the Bora but there was no money for that either. It was the same situation with Maserati back in 2000 and probably will be for quite some time. I think the Khamsin is the better looking car. A design that holds up pretty well. Certainly a lot better looking than a 599. Bob S.
God bless you George. I am depending on folks like you to buy my "stuff" when I'm done. When I got my Bora in 1987 it was already considered a more raw and older technology car. I'd been driving FI cars since 1976 and my Bora was only 8 years old in 1987. It seems we bought them back then for some of the same reasons you cite today. Bob S.
Hello all: I had my birthday presents two days early this weekend, Saturday instead of Monday when I encountered not one but two Khamsins I knew almost nothing about! It was at the 500 Ferraris against cancer event in western France. One was AM120358 which I had last seen....in 1982 at Edmond Ciclet's Lamborghini service garage near Paris, it was then silver, owned by a gentleman who had a castle in central France and homes in Paris and Geneva. The car has more recently spent 12 years in storage due to an inheritance dispute after he passed away before being sold to the current owner who reawakened it, had the hydraulics done, the carbs rebuilt, replaced the dash top alcantara and after minor rust work repainted it a very interesting attractive color, gun metal grey. I am tired of too many silver cars but this is a very rich deep color that suits the sharp lines so this was a new one for me and it goes very well with the tan interior. It is actually a Mercedes color but I do believe Maserati did use canna di fucile paint at some point albeit perhaps not on Khamsins, not as far as I know anyway. We went for a little ride with the owner and it ran very well. It lives on the Atlantic coast of France. Here are some photos, the second car will be covered in a post further down. George: thank you for your kind words best regards, Marc Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
358 interior nose and engine: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
AM120162 This one I knew nothing about except its details when new, it was also at that event was brought by the daughter of the owner and her boyfriend, she said her father had had it "as long as she can remember" and she was in her thirties. She also said it had been in storage for a long time -it had only 48000kms- and when you look at the tires they are getting a bit old. She and him knew nothing else about the car except they did 200kms to come to the event did the road rally and the car was fine even though it was its first time out in years. Unlike 358, 162 was sold new in France but was born grey with white interior so had been repainted dumb red at some point and was very slightly sorry looking but nothing a good service and detailing could not sort out...still two more out of the woodwork....well three if you count the contact I had about one in Malaga Spain last week, am awaiting more info on that one! In other news Bonhams sold AM120US1298 at their Connecticut USA auction Saturday for US$52650 which considering the quality of that car having had a money no object restoration by Gary Bobileff, one of the best in the US is a very poor price. yes it was the wrong color (I almost bought it as a project in 1998 in Florida when it was fly yellow) but still for the quality...whoever bought it got a bargain. It shows the US market is definitely not awake and will only rise when it is too late and all the 5 speed cars are on the other side of the Atlantic! best regards, Marc Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
These tires also look a bit small, maybe 205 instead of 215? Nice to see that #162 has no nose vents, and no strip on the center console of the dashboard. #358 looks good in this colour, isn't this the same colour as the Panini car? #358 does appear to have some front bumper damage? Great how these cars turn up after so many years of storage!
Hello AMLC! Yes another case of a non early car without nose vents... The color is very similar to 080 the Panini car but whatever it was is original whereas 358 is a Mercedes paint and of course being 35 years younger has more shine luster etc. Many cars have the slightly flattened front bumper like that:I call it Parisian parking Yes I was completely surprised to see these two cars, a nice change from the usual needle in a haystack search! best regards, Marc Image Unavailable, Please Login
