Challenge to auto designers on the forum

John,

Your insight into the struggles to get something worthwhile would be most appreciated. Your carreer has spanned the time when Billy-boy was still a powerful VP at GM through Ribycki, Jordan, Cherry and that current guy and the correcting ability of Lutz. I also know that since the design group is relatively small it means that the insider knowledge and opinions of everyone else's trials, tribulations and politics gets spread around.

Hey, take a stab at Design VPs and senior design directors that seem to get the position because they are young and will look good giving a new car intro speech. I think J. Mays was the start of that trend.

For those who don't know of John's work click on the footer of his message.

Jeff

 

I will diverge a little for a more general discussion of design process. My world for the last 30 years is VIP aircraft custom interiors. How my world functions is a study of contrasts to the automotive work.

I have a single client. That person's taste (for good or bad) and all their desires are what drive my results. Compare that to the car where the client is some mythical demographic build-up. Depending upon the car the actual designers may not even want to own or drive that thing.

The timing of my projects is pretty immediate. On a Boeing it might run up to a year or a bit more. I get to see it actually be constructed with everything and do evaluations for the delivery process. The car designers may start working on a car 5 years before it will be in showrooms. In the last year plus they aren't going to be involved while it goes through the process of tooling, prototype and testing. One friend, another person her on F-Chat, told the story of a Mazda he did where when it was introduced he was doing interviews and press events talking about a car he had finished his work on nearly 2 years prior. He had to go into the archives to find stuff he had already forgotten about. At one point he was getting in trouble because he was behind on current projects because of all the promotion events.

I don't have focus groups. My focus group is one person; see first item. This question of the focus group is a real headache for the car guys. Some marketing group assembles a "representative" crowd of people that are supposed to be of the right demographics and other attributes that someone decides are important. This group will be filmed and whatever as they look at and discuss whatever prototype car from the host of the focus group and other selected competitive cars. So here is the problem, these people aren't going to be designers, likely aren't "car" people that follow trends or any other attributes that makes them actually knowledable. The prototype they are looking at won't be on the road for several years. By the time it is all the competitive cars will have likely gone another generation of their own design and whatever larger trends will have happened. These focus group people are not able to project to some date a few years in the future and what would be a leading design for then may be too scary for the uninitiated today.

The tooling and development in my world is mostly borne by a single project. That leads to fairly small tooling because we have limited amoritization. The auto guys do massive tooling in hundreds of millions to get miniscule parts costs. The same goes into all sorts of engineering and manufacturing engineering to get miniscule assembly labor time.

Anyway, hopefully this helps some of you to understand some of the realities.

Jeff

 

Thank you .There was some discussion in the American car section a few days ago. The whole big butt thing cracks me up!

 

No problem.I've had disagreements my whole career . Never been one that shied away from a spirited discussion re: car design.The analogy to the movie/music/advertising business is closer to the reality than anything.Too many cooks,too many opinions,too much "advice".Everyone is an "expert". It's an art,not a science.No right or wrong answers,just different ones.Some more appropriate than others.

Having been in the design business for over 30 years......i never heard any designer say : "hey,lets do a stupid design for this project!" Just doesn't happen. The creative process is never easy.Yes many of the cars today are as if the design teams just got lazy.But i also believe the movie and music business have succumbed at times to the same desease. Make everything to the lowest common denominator,and we'll make the $$$.

Just an opinion."Often wrong.....but never in doubt"!

 

Yes,i was lucky or maybe unlucky enough to have started while Mr. Mitchell was near the end of his career. And worked for all those that you made reference to,including the current administration. I've seen alot in that time,some of which i should probably forget !!!But i truly believe,there was NEVER a dull moment!

 

In due respect, I feel you assume too much exposure to the "original designs" that the general public is aware of. I don't think the general pubic is as literate or savvy to design as you are assuming. Many of the innovative designs are created among designers for designers and would not appeal to the "commoner" regardless. Car enthusiasts, sure, love to see the original clay models and blueprints and drawings that never made it to production. But most people looking to lease a Mustang or Camaro don't ever venture into this deeper niche water.

In other words being a designer yourself distorts your view of how other people experience products. They often like things for reasons they cannot explain. And what they are given to chose from isn't within their control or ability to intelligently understand --and much of that product is mediocre at best because they don't know any better, and anything too radical will give them just enough reason to not buy it. Most people are "go along" types who DO NOT want to stand out too much. They want to be unique within the context of fitting in among the other sheep that they make their company with. It is sheep impressing other sheep.

 

Also don't forget that studios are a very politically charged environment where one must constantly watch what they say. The last thing they want to do is come across as anything but a team player, especially in the current economic situation. That is why we probably won't hear from many practicing designers. They seldom talk shop on the outside.

Interesting also that most of the industry's best are big time tifosi. I know back when I was in school we ran in to John Cafaro at a local auto bookstore in his 308 (or 328 can't remember which). He was a really great guy who seemed to love Ferraris and I always thought he was cool as hell.

 

John's got a 308 GT4.He's had it for probably near 30 years!

Politically charged.....really ?!

 

I can well imagine, as Hollywood is the same, if not worse as you cannot "talk shop" on the outside unless you talk one on one with only a very trusted colleague. Everyone must pretend and buy into the lie at any given moment. Otherwise you are regarded as "negative" and of little value to the aims and aspirations of the Hollywood pimp/whores who are seeking career advancements up the sewage stream ladder to upward failing.

Mediocrity and often outright inferior ideas must be supported by the hired professionals in relationships with others who got them the gig. To breach this implied contract is tantamount to being unemployed. You must accept that you are putting in time and creativity to a bland, stupid, and pointless endeavor. If you remain sober to this reality you can make a good living.

 

Regardless of the nonsense and fat, jelly bean cars there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wonder "what if".

Car design gets in your blood and there is nothing that can take it away or numb it, no matter how hard you try. I imagine it's the same way an athlete feels when they just missed the draft and are sentenced to spending the rest of their life wishing they had their shot, if only for a moment.

I still get that incredible feeling of optimism and hope when I see an old John Mack sketch. I'm instantly transported back to a twenty year old kid sketching cars in my parent's basement for the week's presentation. When I close my eyes I can picture my surroundings to the tiniest detail and even smell the chartpaks and pastels. God, how I miss that process. Just setting foot into an art store brings it all back. I still keep a stack of Vincent Vellum around so I can drag out an old Prismacolor and remember the feeling of what it's like to sketch just out of pure fun. Maybe it's this exact reason that I am so passionate with my opinions on today's cars. Every artist, whether they are right or not, MUST believe that they could do it better. It's that belief that drives us.

The gentlemen above who still have a hand in design are beyond lucky and owe the rest of us your best each day to make sure you do what you can to reverse these trends whether it's cars, toys, or airplanes and create the classics of the future. I wish I could help but FL is a designer's dead end and I don't think anyone's looking for a 40 year never was in this neck of the woods!

 

Who did the Aztek? And is it possible they whispered their intentions?

 

Way too many people and no one......it's a long and painful saga.The stuff for a case study in school. But that is ancient history. Time to move forward,and leave the mistakes/missteps behind.

 

Some of the GM designers that are/have been Ferrari owners:

Chuck Jordan - an assortment over the years starting with a Lusso.
Bill Mitchell - not sure he personally owned one but he had them in the Tech Center fleet
Jerry Palmer - had the GM 308 for a while
Hank Haga - do a 166 Barchetta and a 250 LM count?

At Chrysler but he later went somewhere else - John Clinard

John, can you improve the list with more of the current folks?

Jeff

 

Tom Peter was the studio head. I knew Tom from college where he was one the most talented guys to come along. Tom went to GM upon graduation and has done some fabulous work - Chevy Beretta, Corvette Indy, California Corvette and the current Corvette. Knowing Tom's other work should make one grasp how something other than design talent was at work with that abomination.

The real story on the Aztek probably is interesting in disfunction at its finest. John, can you share some of what you know on that story?

Jeff

 

Tom Peters came by our school for a presentation one time. What a cool, energetic person. He had a way of getting everyone fired up.

An aside, check out www.deansgarage.com for some very cool car design studio images from back in the glory days like this one:
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John Cafaro 308GT4
John Albert 308 GTB
John Manoogian 328/355/430
John Mack Lamborghini Jalpa
Claudio Bertolin 308 GTB
Wayne Cherry 275 GTB/4
Whoa.....way too many Johns.... No waiting !

 

I could.................but i won't . Better left for another time.I hope you can understand.Maybe over a few beers sometime.I'll buy.
That was then,and this is now.Sometimes it's best to let some time pass before examining history.Gives us a better perspective i believe.

 

OK. My suspicion is that it was a perfect storm of everyone but Design being able to dictate the look. That should have also coincided with the height of power for all the P&G brand managers (masters of managing soap but not cars). In an Autoweek/Automotive News interview with Lutz when he retired the most recent time from GM he mentioned how the design organization had when he arrived at GM devolved to the point where the VP of Design, Wayne Cherry, wasn't even needed to approve a design for production.

I remember a time at Chrysler (intern for a summer while at ACCD) where the designers for the car were just worn out as the car was being finished. There were pictures of all the significant develpment proposals and it became painfully obvious that "management" took every opportunity to approve the wrong option. The designers in the studio knew that their situation was to make the best turd out of what they had been left with.

Jeff

 

Regulation and cost. Bottom line. The schools are producing great designers with some really cool ideas but the regulations and costs limit EVERYTHING. One example of regulation is how BMW won't bring the BMW M3 GTS to America because they would have to add a few hundred pounds of safety equipment and those development costs would be too great.

Also, creating really complex panels and shapes will be very expensive. The bentley azure convertible has such a complex bootlid shape that machines can't make it, it must be hand done. So today, designers can make cool concepts, but as they go through the car development process, some cool features may be abandoned to fit within the capabilities of the tools producing them and to reduce costs. Again, all of the gov safety regulations play a huge role too because they require tons of equipment and micromanage how it is implemented.

 

Jeff,

See, you already know most of the answers ! Sadly you're closer to the truth than you realize. That whole " Brand Mgt." era did us all in.

I'll still buy the beer when we meet ! There are plenty of stories . Remember...never a dull moment.

 

What I suspected as likely and having confirmation are different. When looking at the Aztek it is easy to see that something in the process had to be fundamentally wrong when the basic proportions were tortured beyond belief.

So, moving back to Ferrari realm - what is the scuttlebutt on Ferraris having an in-house design manager somehow guiding the design process with Pf? As wonderful as it would be to have that title on a CV it is against what made the best Ferrari designs possible - a single designer. So is this a sign of Pf decline or some Ferrari "grand scheme" of active management? Since the first guy already left does this mean that the internal politics became insurmountable?

What is the professional opinion on the new 458? To me it looks forced, especially the headlight/air vent treatment.

To me the 599 was much more of a pure design that had been left alone by medling.

Jeff

 

I think those responsible for the Aztec were sacked and got jobs at Honda working on the Element!

 

Unfortunately the architecture that they wound up with for the Aztek wasn't flexible to accomodate the design that everyone wanted to do. Terrible tire to body,flat vertical bodyside,etc.Yet, the Buick team managed to do a more successful job with their solution IMO. The Buick sold in better numbers as well.
Not quite sure what to make of the relationship with Ferrari/Pininfarina. Ferrari has had their own in house design director for some time now,but it's not clear exactly who is doing what.It is my impression that Pininfarina is still doing all the design work , and the Ferrari in house design team does all the customization and watching over the whole brand/design strategy. But i don't know that for a fact.
Many from the design community i talk with are concerned that Ferrari design may be losing their way.I like the 458 , but some of the details are probably not what i would have done.But then give 10 designers a project and you'll get 10 totally different answers !And it's hard to be critical without knowing exactly what specific constraints were in place.Just my observation.