Gremlins In The 308 GTSi Electronic Ignition | FerrariChat

Gremlins In The 308 GTSi Electronic Ignition

Discussion in '308/328' started by chipkent, Jun 14, 2010.

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  1. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I bought a non-op 308 GTSi about a year ago. Since then, I've rebuilt the engine and fuel injection system, and have gone though all of the wiring related to the fuel injection and electronic ignition.

    A week or so ago, I drove the car over to the exhaust shop (~30 mi) to put on a new Magnaflow. When I picked the car up, I kept getting a hint of misfire in the exhaust note. While driving home, the car felt flat and finally died on me. When it died, my wife said I had nice flames coming out the exhaust.

    After having the car towed home (with 2x Ferrari tax), I've done diagnostics on the electronic ignition. I'm getting no spark at the coils. All of the standard multimeter tests at the digiplex connector for 700 ohms, 12V, ground, etc. check out fine. At this point, I'm at a loss for what the problem is. I'm hoping to put the oscilloscope on it tonight to make sure that the crank sensors and digiplex have reasonable output.

    The electronic ignition has always been the most flakey part my car. Before committing to an aftermarket system, I was hoping that someone has an idea where the gremlin is hiding in the current system. Other than the oscilloscope, are there any diagnostics I should be doing?
     
  2. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    Not sure what your tech level is, or what equipment you have at home, but I would check and see if you have any spark at the coils. I've read numerous threads here on F-chat about ground and other such problems and followed everyons advice about ensuring that good grounds for the ingnition system are in place. Search for ground problems etc and you'll find a wealth of info.

    I found that by hooking up my old inductive timing light to each of the coil wires, I was able to see that one bank was intermittent. I went through all the grounding stuff, swapped digiplexes/coils etc and still had the problem. It turned out to be a bad crank sensor. I knew which of the three was bad, but replaced all of them since I was in there ... no problems now. Maybe all that sitting was bad for them.

    good luck
    Bob

    OBTW I'm sure way more advice will come your way once people see your post
     
  3. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I have a moderate tool addiction so I've got a lot of tools.

    I've already checked for spark directly from the coils using a spare ignition wire and a spark gap tester. There is none. I guess I should also test with a timing light to doubly convince myself that the problem is not in the high tension part of the circuit.

    When checking the digiplex harness, I checked the ground. I think it was pin 11. It had about 1 ohm relative to the engine block. Is there another ground I need to check?
     
  4. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    Sorry, after sending my response I saw that you had no spark at the coils ... DUH!

    Everything I've read said that these cars do not like a ground problem. What I did was checked out some other threads about running additional ground wires from the digiplexes to the body. Specifically to the after mounting tabs where the digiplex panel that holds the digiplexes in place attaches to in the luggage area. I also checked and cleaned all the connections at the coils (3 or 4 per coil). Ensured a good ground at the battery as well. Sorry I don't remember the pin out or readings and I'm away from the car this week so I can't verify for you.

    I'm sure that you're frustrated that it won't fire up ... I wish I had some other thing for you to check.

    Bob
     
  5. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    Running a temporary ground from the digiplexes to the engine block seems like a good idea to eliminate that ground as a problem.
     
  6. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    Good news and bad news. Good news is that the car magically started up and ran great as soon as I brought the scope into the garage. All traces looked great on the scope. Bad news is that the gremlin is probably waiting until I take a long drive before it returns. This is starting to sound like a Jaguar story... Maybe I should just drive around with the scope in the car to ward off the gremlins.
     
  7. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    How long was it running before you shut it down? Did it get up to operating temperature (approx 190)? It could be a heat related problem with the ingnition wiring. Also check your alternator output, this has been another common problem, those digiplex units want a good 12V. They get "flaky" as you described when your voltage drops. Could possibly be the alternator getting hot and causing a voltage drop. You run on the battery for a while and then it just dies. I've had that happen to me in other "old" cars. I know you have a battery light (low voltage) that is probably illuminated on start then goes out when you rev it up, but that thing is not a very reliable indicator.

    I keep bringing up the crank sensors here, but my car would be fine for awhile. Once it warmed up it would start acting wierd ... poor idle wanted to die etc. Shut it down wait 15 minutes or so and it would be ok ... then start acting up. Frustrating!

    I'd hate to see you change over to a new ignition system if you don't have too.
     
  8. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    The car was running for a good 10-20min before it shut down so it was well up to temp. After it died, I tried restarting it on a few successive days. It wasn't until the scope approached the car that it started. It could be a heat related problem, but that seems weird given that the car wouldn't start in the following days. I've also redone all of the wiring connectors in the harness.

    It is possible that the crank sensors or alternator are contributing and have intermittent problems. The crank sensors are currently checking out for resistance, and the battery always checks out at 12.4V so if there is a problem, it is intermittent.

    If I do decide to change out the crank sensors to ensure that they aren't the problem, which vendor has the best prices?

    After the car died on me, I replaced the ignition switch because I was having a problem with the starter. The car restarted for the first time after the new switch was installed. There is a chance that the switch had other problems and wasn't delivering a full 12V to the digiplex.
     
  9. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    Man that is frustrating. I hate when these intermittent things crop up. I got my sensors from an ebay vendor in the UK. IIRC they are SEN-8D 064820083010. If you google SEN-8D you'll get some info. They were 28 pounds (english money) approx $35 US way better than $175 US. Here is a thread about them:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256755&highlight=crank+sensor

    Good luck and keep the scope in the luggage compartment
     
  10. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,982
    I had a close call where the car had a miss and I feared the worst. it turned out to be a damaged lug connector in one of those heavy molded boots going to the coils. It got bumped from a filter change and broke. I noticed it when I carefully checked the security of the coil connections and one felt too flexible.

    Hopefully your bug is simple to find. Always start by checking the simple stuff.
     
  11. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    The car died on me twice in the last 2 days so I've had a chance to get more data. The first time, I drove 10 min in the morning, 20 minutes in the afternoon, let the car sit for an hour, and it wouldn't turn over. The battery was at 6V. That night, I charged the battery to try again in the morning. I verified 12V before installing the battery. When I connected the cable I heard a crackle, and my wife heard a whirring which stopped after a few seconds without putting the key in. The car wouldn't try to crank so I suspected the switch. A push start got it going without a problem. I drove for about 3 min and the ignition shut out completely, and the car wouldn't restart. After sitting about 10 min, I was able to get a multimeter on it. The battery was all the way down to 9V. I disconnected the cables and verified that the crank sensors were checking out. I reconnected the cables to check the voltage at the diagnostic plug (crackle again). I was only getting 1.5 mV. I then checked the voltage across the battery. I was getting 2V with the cables attached and 5V with the cables detached. I didn't have my ammeter, but I'm really starting to suspect that my ignition problem is a short in the starter or possibly my alternator.
     
  12. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    ok ... well at least it's not so intermittent now.

    Sure sounds like a "big time" ground somewhere. I agree that symptoms point to the stater/alternator wiring harness, if not the components themselves. Crank sensors are not the problem.

    Any chance you've got a wire that's melted due to touching the exhaust somewhere? Or maybe a wire got pinched during reassembly. I'm clueless on the whirring sound. but it could be the starter spinning without engaging.

    You could also be experiencing the dreaded fuse block/relay problems that many have encountered. Luckily my car had Birdman's fuse block upgrade done to it by the PO, so I've not had to deal with that. I hate to keep adding things to the checklist, but you never know.

    I'm sure you've probably already checked, but did you ensure the engine ground wire itself is clean and tightly attached to the engine/frame? Mine was an ugly glob of grease that could hardly be recognized if you didn't know where to look. If not, it's located under the on the P side towards the rear of the engine mount. It's a heavy mesh metal strap about an inch wide.

    good luck
     
  13. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    When I'm under the car, I'll check for melted wires. I didn't see any last time.

    I think the whirring sound was the starter because it came from the driver's side.

    The fuse block was the first thing I rebuilt on the car. In typical Ferrari fashion, it was melted on the back side.

    The ground strap should be ok but is worth checking while I'm under the car. It was a blob of grease before I rebuilt the engine.
     
  14. Bobbytinvab

    Bobbytinvab Karting

    Jan 22, 2010
    237
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Full Name:
    Bob T
    Good news on the fuse blocks.

    I hope you can find the ground. I'm pretty sure something is loose/worn in the harness or inside the alternator (diode possibly) or starter (solenoid). Once you find it, I'll bet that your car's ignition system will perform as it should and your smiles per hour will increase accordingly.

    I had a diode problem with my old Mustang ... it would fry a wire to the stater solenoid. It didn't show up in the alternator test until I physically removed it and took to an auto electric shop. I had it rebuilt (wanted to keep the original one) and no problems since.

    I'm looking forward to hearing what it is!!!
     
  15. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I finally got under the car tonight. It was hard to miss the problem. The starter must have shorted and gotten ultra hot causing the solenoid to crumble which caused the positive battery cable to ground on the heat shield causing the whole wiring harness to melt together. This is going to be a major PITA to deal with. I sure wish I would have changed the starter when I rebuilt the motor last winter. Now I'm not sure if I'll have the car on the road again before winter hits.
     
  16. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,689
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Ah that sucks. Sorry to hear it.
     
  17. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    Yea. This car is really killing my interest in Ferrari. It is by far the most labor per mile of any car I've ever owned. It makes the Jaguars I've owned seem trouble free.
     

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