At what point does mileage count??

So, in the 3X8 section we were having a discussion about a high mileage car on ebay. It occurred to me that there are extremes and I am not sure where the balance lies.

There are several lines of thought to consider:

1. People who think a Ferrari should have less than 30-40k miles regardless of age.

2. People who think a Ferrari should run XXXX miles per year (if its averaged out, then its ok)

3. People who treat a Ferrari like a garage queen. (Close to #1, but not necessarily the same).

4. People who believe in driving their car as much as possible.

5. People who believe any car with any mileage is ok as long as maintenance records are intact.


There are people who complain that a car is in shoddy condition because it wasnt driven. Then they complain because there are too many miles on it.


These ideas seem to hold true with the more modern era cars. However, at what point does it changeover? Obviously, a 308 with 100k miles is going to be a well driven car (although that could average out to roughly 3k per year on a car built in 1980). But, I have never heard of anyone snubbing their nose at a high mileage Daytona?? Or thinking "I would not have that 250 GTO, it has too many miles? Or even looking down on a high mileage 246.

So, what is the breaking point?

Is it ok for a 1972 246 to have 100k+ miles, but not for a 1976 308??


I dont know the answer, but I am curious to the responses this may generate...assuming you read this text wall.



PDG

 

I don't own a high end car, but I know these cars were built to be driven, not sit in a garage. The only reason why I would consider one of these vehicles to have an excessive amount of miles is if it wasn't maintained and cared for properly. The more you drive, the shorter your service intervals get. If you don't stay on top of it then you're going to eventually have a beater.

On the other hand, too little mileage can be detrimental as well. I used to be a Jaguar tech, and I have seen some garage babies that were falling apart with almost no mileage. Rubber rotted, leaks etc.

Personally, I'd rather deal with a higher mileage car than one that has almost no miles.

 

I guess I'd say the "standard" for weekend exotics is 2,000 miles per year or less. So you could say a 1990 348 with 40k miles has appropriate mileage. But you can find 1990 348s with mileage in the teens. So that should demand a premium given the rest of the car's wear matches the mileage.

 

The more interesting question is when does mileage become irrelevant?

CW

 

As the US economy continues down the decades long path of asset deflation, what you are going to see is more of these kinds of cars begin driven a lot more than they ever were in the last 30 years.

Personally, I don't really care too much what the mileage is, as long as it has good service records and the price being asked truly reflects it's current condition. On a lot of the older F-cars (mid 90's and earlier) I don't trust the odometer readings anyways..........too easy to fiddle with.

 

I think older F-car mileage is irrelevant because a lot are suspect anyway. I have seen cars that claimed to have 20-40K miles and they had holes in the carpet below the clutch pedal????? I don't put a lot of faith in the odometer. Modern cars with computers and mileage reporting like marta testing are better sources of true mileage. Atleast faking low mileage is a lot harder with newer cars of all makes.

 

I don't have 'The Answer'. But I will say that I'm glad and relieved that my interests have turned to vintage where people generally don't care about the odometer because it is assumed the drivetrain has been rebuilt, and it is assumed the 40+ year old paint was redone. And you can rebuild these cars forever. It's fantastic.

The truth is that for modern-ish Ferraris there is a huge premium for garage queens. We often talk about how "these cars are meant to be driven", but it's kind of a lone voice in the woods. Bottom line is that there are a lot of 10,000-mile 308s out there (to take one example), so you can wax all you want about the benefits of a 50,000-mile car being better sorted: when time comes to sell, that 10,000-mile car will get the royal treatment.

Among the newer cars that I really like, such as the F40, I would buy one with some mileage just to avoid the premium and alleviate the "odometer guilt".

 

I think you're right. Although I was reading an article in a Porsche magazine (might have been Excellence) about the epidemic of faked odometer readings on Boxsters. So, I don't know how hard it is with the newer ones.

 

I agree.
I've always wonderd how the mileage issue was treated as it pertains to a restored car. How involved must the restoration be to zero the odometer? What about a rolling restoration? My car has 65k on the clock but has a new interior, recently rebuilt engine and nice paint. Not that I intend to sell, but I do wonder how much of that money I could get back.

 

Everyone says drive, drive and drive but when it comes time to sell, the seller and future buyer usually want less miles on the car. Sad but true.

I drive when I feel like it and am not going to worry about mileage.

 

Maybe the difference is whether the car is an Enzo era, pre 1970 or Montezemolo era car. The auctions brag about the fresh restoration, new paint and the frame off restorations of these older cars. Those cars are few in number and depreciation isn't a factor either.

So maybe we say that the miles don't matter if depreciation doesn't matter?

I believe that documentation trumps mileage, regardless of how many miles.

 

There's a balance between mileage, condition, originality, price, on any given car you're looking to buy. Given we try to always look for the optimal vs. price then that's a decision the buyer needs to make. I'd take the low mile, perfect condition, factory correct car at a great price any day. Who wouldn't? If that doesn't work then you let any one of those factors slip based on your tolerance.

 

The 308 is getting so old now that the mileage for me would be irrelevant as the first order of business would be to rebuild the engine among restoring as much of the interior and body as needed. The chassis could have 500,000 miles on it but if the engine and transmission are fresh then half of my concerns have been addressed.

 

Maybe with the 1-of-1 stuff (Jim's P4/5 will always be the lowest mileage P4/5 extant) and cars w/unique provenance (mileage might not matter much on a LeMans winner, for example).

 

Problem is that 308 values don't justify a full engine rebuild, interior restoration and body/paint. Add those three, done well, and you're at or near the value of the car.

When values get to Dino 246 level, then mileage is less important because you can do major restorative work without being buried.

 

Oh well, I tried

308s will not get to Dino value levels anytime soon, probably not for 300 more years

 

As soon as I buy the car it becomes irrelevant to me!!

 

I am not sure why mileage is so important anyway. Other brands of cars, you rebuild the motor and add some money to the value because the motor has been rebuilt.

I do agree that the more mileage, the more parts get worn and can go wrong and a car can nickel & dime you to death, on a Ferrari, those are really big nickels/dimes ! Other cars you rebuild and drive or sell for more money since its been rebuilt, a Ferrari with a rebuilt motor almost seems worth less to most people.

Personally, I have driven a 246GT with 190,000 miles on it and it was just fine, yeah lots of little things wrong with it but nothing serious just expensive.

My 3x8GTS will have lots of miles on it when I finally find it and have the yahoos to pull the trigger, if it has enough miles on it, I might even be able to afford the 3x8 and keep the FIAT Dino.

 

The breaking point is when the value climbs, the junk gets parted out or restored. When an engine rebuild is expected mileage will become irrelevant. I don't know when that will happen. Right now the value is so low people look for ways to differentiate and the vast majority of these cars are unrestored, simply fixed when broken. They are getting to a point where they are all worn out from age in one way or another, almost none fully restored and the market is grasping at straws, that is why there are so many opinions.

 

Or, mileage will be irrelevant the day an unrestored rust bubble car is 30K and a fully restored car is 100K.

 

I think when they start reaching 50 yrs old, no body will care about milage.


My dad restored Model Ts for sometime and NO ONE carred a whit about a mile-- EXCEPT the one car documented to have raced at Indy. Those 500 miles put a premium on that car.



Eventually the milage a car has will become irrelivant (when they (nearly) all have been rebuilt) and it is coming sooner rather than later.

 

As for the 308's, I truly think the issue of mileage should be ignored by sellers, buyers, and the market as a whole.

IMHO, mileage on these cars has been rendered meaningless, because (I'll speculate that) about 90% of the cars out there which show under 30K miles have had their odometers disconnected often and / or rolled back.

Does anyone honestly believe that these cars have only been driven 1,000 miles per year, on average, since they were new??? I call bull**** on any 308 for sale claiming "20-25K original miles" unless the entire mileage history of that car is fully documented and can be objectively verified --- which is also BS, because it almost never can be. These cars are 30+ years old and, in most cases, have been passed around through multiple owners and multiple DOT jurisdictions in the era when mileage records, verification protocols, and "tamper-proof" odometers rarely even existed.

 

I think mileage DOES count. Of course, when I was looking for my 348, originality and mileage was a criteria for me. There is a premium for a car that has truly documented ownership/history and correct maintenance.

If you set out to purchase a "nice" car and mileage is not a factor, then I would bet that the purchaser is searching for a "lower" priced car. High mileage cars, however they have been maintained, are going to sell for less money. I have concluded from reading many posts here that a 348 or 355 with more than 40k miles is considered "high mileage" by most....I would like to ask those who have sold or are trying to sell what their personal experiences have been. I think we may be jaded by our ownership one way or the other. I suspect dealers etc have determined what those in the market truly want...

 

When you are buying a car, Mileage counts.

When you are selling a car, Mileage does not count.

 

To me mileage is only an issue when previous history is not documented well and you have no idea what has been done to that car.

I'd take a 100,000 mile car where every single part was recently replaced or rebuilt over a 10,000 mile car which was a garage queen with all original parts.