Engine mounts | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Engine mounts

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by hogbreth, Jan 7, 2008.

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  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    They did.

    What causes you to think otherwise?


    When the early mounts go bad we are not suggesting the motor just falls out on the ground. Of course the mount brackets catch it.....after a fashion. Only after the oil pan comes to rest on the steering rack and the oil pressure sender sags dangerously close to the sway bar. If you had a competent mechanic all this would have been explained to you long ago.
     
  2. jonp

    jonp Karting

    Jun 24, 2006
    86
    Essex, UK
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    Jon
    Thanks Brian, my confusion is:

    I don't understand how the 550 mounts have been superceded as they are still listed by major suppliers both US and UK as current, and separate to the 575 mounts...normally it's clearly stated what's superceded by what. Apparently if I asked authorised dealers in the UK to change the mounts, I would get the 550 style unless I asked otherwise.

    I also couldn't 100% see from the diagrams and pictures of the two mounts how the failures would be hugely different i.e. they both look like they would allow a similar height drop, it'll be it in a slightly different fashion for sure but the result is the important thing...and what I am trying to understand further.

    Clearly your experience is not the same, and hence I was keen to learn from that experience, particularly as going back to the point above, both parts still seem to be listed as current. After 12 years in my car the current mounts are apparently still sound and no-one over here seems to have experienced these issues that I could find - major parts suppliers, indies or authorised dealers, other items yes but not this.

    I don't really see how this brands a mechanic as incompetant for not having seen an issue in 20years of Lamborghini and Ferrari experience, and their crime being to suggest I may want to double check before I pass hard earned money over for something that currently isn't broke and no-one seems to have flagged over here.

    You mention that when the old style fails the sender then sits dangerously close to the sway bar. Sorry, again not to ask the stupid question, but I'm trying to understand the mount failure in more detail and dangerously close is very different to smashed off with bust engine due to no oil. Then trying to confirm that a 575 mount does actually afford more protection should it equally fail, given that it too can also drop.

    My understanding is that Ferrari cited the the mount change for the 575 as offering better vibration absorbtion....did they actually refer to 550 mount failures or the like?

    Hence the post on the forum as I'm keen to understand this a little further, and thought that was the purpose of the forum.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Ferrari no longer makes 550 mounts. I do not care what the parts books say.


    I am sorry but I am just not going to draw you a picture.
     
  4. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Correct. Classic Coach is starting to see some degradation of the new style mounts in higher mileage 575Ms. It's a big heavy engine!

    I have 26,000 miles on my new style mounts which replaced the original motor mounts at 40,000 miles. I need a new oil pressure sender and my car will be on the lift this Thursday. I've asked them to check the motor mounts.

    Barry
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    #30 tazandjan, Jul 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
    Barry- Gotcha. That post is 2.5 years old. I thought I was the only one that did that and Brian is always the one who catches me.

    Jon- It goes something like this in dumb fighter jock language. Engine resting on rubber, bad. Engine resting on steel, good. Eventually all the rubber parts get squished, but the 575M mounts squish more slowly and cause less damage when squished.

    Nobody understands everything that goes on in Ferrari parts catalogs. Even if you have all the tech bulletins and updates, there are always things that are inconsistent and require eyeballs on experience to understand. I have several tech bulletins on the 575M that are not in Ricambi's online parts catalog, and theirs are more up to date than my parts catalogs. Like Brian always tells me, do not trust Ferrari tech data implicitly. Put 10 liters of oil in your 550 like the OM/WSM say and you will be 2 liters low.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  6. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    I know it's an old post, Terry. My oil pressure sender has failed just a year and a half since I replaced it last. As my 550 now has 26,000 miles on the new style motor mounts, I feel this is quite relevant. We'll know on Thursday how the new mounts have held up.

    Barry
     
  7. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #32 308 GTB, Jul 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
    ...or I could just have a crappy sender.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Barry- Curses, I am always trying to catch someone doing that and I am usually the only one who gets caught.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  9. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    It's just a message board, Terry. Anyway, alot of these older posts are quite interesting when put in perspective.

    Barry
     
  10. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #35 308 GTB, Jul 6, 2010
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  11. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #36 308 GTB, Jul 6, 2010
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  12. jonp

    jonp Karting

    Jun 24, 2006
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    Thanks Barry, very true, it makes sense that the 575 mounts are a little easier to track as to any current sag on it etc. Interested to hear how your mounts are fairing etc and any issues re the sender given your own and 'classic coach' findings.

    Last thing I want to do is replace something that isn't broken or more pertinantly then have a false security about this resolving the original primary concern if it doesn't.

    Just looking at this concern from another angle, the picture I had was a sender whacking a sway bar and then 12 ltrs of oil pouring quickly onto the floor. If it did whack the sway bar and break off, wouldn't it likely only split the main sender component at worst, not the part that screws into the crankcase, which I assume based on a normal sender unit design then leaves at worst a pin size hole for 12 ltrs of oil to pass thru?
     
  13. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Jon,

    My car is serviced frequently over at Classic Coach but I've asked them to look closely at the engine mounts this time. It's scheduled to be there tomorrow so I'll certainly let you know how the mounts are doing on Friday.

    Barry
     
  14. 550JAB

    550JAB Karting

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    #39 550JAB, Jul 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2010
    The engine mounts on my 2000 550 failed earlier this year. I bought the car 3 years ago and was assured at the time that they had been changed for the 575 version. The dealer I bought it from, was the same place that diagnosed the recent mount failure, so I was naturally suspicious that they'd never been replaced. i was of course assured that they had been replaced and had failed again. Seemed strange at the time but tough for me to check.

    Anyway the symptoms for failure in my case were a feeling of driving on oval wheels on full lock at manoevering speeds, caused apparently by the engine resting on the steering rack. The mount change has solved the problem, so I'm happy but poorer.

    There are some thoughts that if you get a more pronounced Cavallino impression (from the top of the plenum) on the under bonnet mat that this is a sign that your mounts are on the way out, but I must say that it doesn't make sense to me. If the engine is riding lower as the rubber mounts compress, why would there be a deeper impression on the mat which is above it?
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    JAB- One of the primary purposes of an engine mount is to prevent the engine from traveling upwards when you hit a bump. When the mounts loosen from wear, there is slack in the connection from block to mount and over bumps the engine gets a flying start and bounces further upwards than it would if solidly bolted down.

    The perfect compromise in an engine mount is one where the engine is solidly located, but the mount does no pass NVH into the passenger compartment. Difficult to do perfectly and the higher the torque of the engine, the faster mounts fail. One of the easy checks for broken engine mount is to put the car in gear and slightly let out the clutch with the brake on. The engine will try and climb off its motor mounts and the broken one is easily spotted.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The new mounts do go bad but their design prevents any contact between the motor and steering rack when they do so I am suspicious of their earlier assurances. The top of the later mounts has a steel plate, rubber coated in the relevant places that bridges the solid steel portion. When the mount sags (it will) the rubber insulated steel plate comes to rest on the the main body preventing further sagging and maintaining a minimal rubber isolation of the motor/frame.
     
  17. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Jon,

    I had to reschedule servicing of my 550 to Monday. I'll let you know how the mounts are doing next week.

    Barry
     
  18. 550JAB

    550JAB Karting

    May 10, 2007
    59
    London
    Taz, that makes sense, I hadn't thought about it that way.

    I think It's clear that my mounts were not replaced prior to purchase, but sometimes you just have to take these things on the chin.
     
  19. jonp

    jonp Karting

    Jun 24, 2006
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    Thanks Barry, hope it's something simple for you.
     
  20. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #45 308 GTB, Jul 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Jon,

    My car's engine mounts were changed at 43,327 miles in November, 2004. The previous owner had noted high oil pressure readings over 4,000 RPM and a small puddle of oil on his garage floor.

    In 2004, shops still had the "old solution" engine mounts in inventory for the 550 and mine received the old style mounts. They now have over 24,000 miles on them and my tech said they were still OK and providing appropriate clearances from vital components. As my car is serviced frequently, we'll just keep an eye on them and change them in the future when their time comes.

    As promised, here are pictures of my mounts taken last week. You can see the bolt head imprint left when the original mounts sagged.

    Barry
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