Recommend a vintage Ferrari to a newbie

Ironically, the perfect Italian Stallion for you is not a Ferrari - it is a Lambo Miura.

 

Although there probably are a lot of more knowledgeable folk on this thread and in Vintage here is my take on older Ferraris based on my experiences over the past 35 years w/ driving Ferraris. Note that I am not limiting my comments to your parameters.....price and age included.......

250 GT.........I drove this car a few times. And the example was a nut and bolt restoration. To me the 250 does feel as old as it is. Outdated suspension combined with an only- adequate engine makes it just okay, but not all that much fun to drive.

330 GTS........my father owned one that I was allowed to drive alot. A really fun car to drive with a great combination of design, handling, balance, and power....the perfect little red Italian sports car.

330 GTC........I have owned 2 and it is still my favorite to drive.....everyday to the grocery store or on a spirited drive in the mountains. Of my 3 Fcars this is my most prized. No power steering hence excellent feel, 360 degree visibility, pedals perfect for heel-toe, good handling w/ nice torque in the 3-6k rpm range. Room for luggage and a really practical car. I put 100k miles on my first one and plan to do the same with my current GTC.

365 GT 2+2.......the Queen Mother was an appropriate moniker for this car. The 4.4 V-12 is a better and more free spinning engine than the 330 version. The car was a grand cruiser with all the right sounds and smells. Unfortunately the king pin front suspension made for a turning radius of about a mile and then some. And the suspension travel was a bit tight giving some jarring shocks. It could have been the characteristics of the car I owned. So their are others that might be able to give you a differing opinion. I would say more of a GT than a sports car.

Daytona......What an engine!! It pulled real hard up to the redline. As has been said many times this is the Italian version of a muscle car. Around town...well not much fun. But if you have the roads for this long-legged beast than it will give you a real thrill. Don't think of it as an everyday vintage though [unlike the GTC]. It is an impressive car.

365 GTC/4.......I have owned 2 of these and drove a 3rd frequently. While it does have a similar engine to the Daytona the cars are really different. As well documented it really has a great sound at 5k rpm. Makes the heart beat a little faster. Like the 365 Queen Mother the C/4 is a GT car that does not seem to have the tossibility of the earlier 330s. For me there is some disconnect between the power steering and the feel of the road. Again this might be just me...it feels like a big car hence my opinion as it being a GT.

500 Superfast......My uncle let me drive his a few times. Big engine with lots of power and certainly very unique. It just does not want to stop and really is not for spirited driving in the curves......very heavy. It will impress others at the shows and the opera. Just not on the roads.

246 GTS.......Probably one of the prettiest auto designs on earth. I like the design more than any Ferrari I have ever owned. Only a few nicer out there......maybe a 275 Nart Spyder, GTO and some race cars could compete in the beauty department. From a handling standpoint it is like driving a go-kart. You sit a few inches off the ground and the mid-engine balance is really superior to the front engine V-12s. But it lacks power. 195 [quoted] hp is lacking when compared to the 12s or the 8s. Too bad they did not put a bigger engine in this great little sports car. 240 hp would have been great!!

BB 512........I have never driven the 365 GT/4 BB version but did own a carbed BB. I loved this car. You cannot be tall and get comfortable in a BB. At 5-10 I fit just fine. With a helmut it was tight. But the sounds, the torque, the style.....great car that is well under appreciated in my opinion. You have to live in a cool climate though. Not only is the a/c a joke, but the hot pipes run under the cockpit, and airflow off the radiator comes into the open windows. Not a good combination for keeping cool. I have also driven the injected version but it is not just the same. It seems to have less "umph" and is missing the induction roar of the carb car.

I will stop there w/ the Boxer. I have owned and driven a few of the newer cars but I know I am already outside of your age parameters. I know it is not what you asked.....but for $300k you could have a BB 512, a 355 GTS and a 550 Maranello.....an instant classics collection. All great cars that I rank highly in the scheme of driver Ferraris.

Sorry for making such a long story of my opinions. And I left out my recommendation for one of the best FCars [275 GTB notwithstanding]........the 365 GTC. This car combines the better 365 [type 245] engine, GTC independent suspension, transaxle, classic lines and excellent handling characteristics. Fast as a Daytona to 100 mph and much more practical and fun to drive. Only 150 built. Yes, a bit over the $300k price range, but will be worth the investment in the long run.

 

Thank you so much. That type of candid insight is as valuable as it is rare.

 

Great post Steve! Others may have more details (and niggles) for each car; but this is an excellent overview for newbies. Another 'feather-in-the-cap' for FChat.


Tritone

 

330GTC/GTS is by far the most usable 60s car; Close 2nd is 330GT Series 2

 

It depends on what you want to do-- my experience is limited to the 365GT and Daytona. Both are great grand tourers, but not so much twisty road or track burners. Neither is particularly good in town.

 

Fangio8c,

There is no wrong answer here.

The early cars feel vintage: Live axle, interesting brakes, etc.

This feel transitioned in the mid '60s with IRS.

A GTC (either 330 or 365) is a wonderful car, mid '60s heritage yet a more modern road feel.

A PF Coupe has very similar mechanicals to a TdF - a bit de-tuned engine with a heavier, more comfortable body. The feel is of a much older car than the GTC. This is the '50s 2 seat Ferrari that you mentioned and, with luck, you can find one in your price range.

The 2+2's are wonderful, flexible cars that can be used for long trips and overnight excursions with (small) kids. My personal favorites are the 330 powered 2+2s. The America has the GTE's styling but a 4 liter engine - the car is a blast! It is also rare - 50 made. The 330 GT (2+2) is bigger than the GTE but has a much lighter feel to it than the Queen or any of the '70s V-12s. A good 330 GT is suprisingly fun to drive. The Queen is a great cruiser - beautiful, comfortable; it even has some AC.

Note: the earlier cars are simpler, thus a little simpler to maintain. That said, maintenance/restoration is comparable across the board - a 100 point concourse restoration of a 250 GTE will be the same effort as a 250 GT California.

In my opinion, these are the cars that are in your price range and meet your description. Take the time and drive several of each to determine which suits you. Also, visit Tom Yang's site ( www.tomyang.net ) where many of the owners of '60s Ferrari drivers converse.

Good luck in your search.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Good evening from Spain, football World Cup winners!!!

I joined only a few weeks ago the GTC owner´s club. After having owned and enjoyed for more than 4 years a 250 Europa, it found a new home. I bought a lovely 365 GTC, and i´m literally in love with it.

A 50´s Ferrari is a jewel that gives a lot of fun, but a GTC, obviously 15 years more modern, is a totally different story. IMO clearly undervalued. It´s pretty, discreet, powerful, good fun, space for luggage, not as noisy but still a marvellous sound...it has everything. If I had more money I would obviously own a "better" Ferrari, but in the range of budget you talk about I think there is no discussion. Buy a GTC.

Good luck!

 

275s are rteally the last vestiges of "the old ways"...the "ultimate 250" as it were, suspension and transaxle to be specific...
"Vintage" 250s are more straightforward in appearance vis-a-vis driveline, however, thgis appearance of simplicity{hence attractiveness to DIYers} is where these cars got off the tracks in the 1970s, and unless professionally restored since-will have continued to waver from true factory baselines...which means cost to remanufacture when the eventual moment of truth arrives fro said "from the centerline of the crank/first motiuon shaft" reman must finally be undertaken...the costs can be staggering! In summation, be wary of the 250-looks and "cooleness" aside...
330 is still dragging the 50's into m id sixties...excepting the "C" models{209/245...makes no real difference to the essence of the car}
Queenies....ugh...

Daytonas, C/4s, Boxers, DINOs, while all cool...and seemingly "vintage"... ARE NOT...

I largely concur with the earlier "redacted" evaluation/summation...
275s are the best, however, the costs have blown them into the rarified air cost wise to buy...worth the reach-without ANY hesitation-for a GOOD one...you can make a 500K mistake easily if not an expert here..

365C would be the best of all considerations-there are a faster car on the track than a Daytona, and when run hard, the "little" detail changes made as an upgrade from the 209 cars is felt dramatically...parts are scarce(try finding a NOS upright!)
Good luck-CIAO!

 

Steve. Great post! Have you thought about a full thread on your comparisons and experience w these cars?

Also, echoing your thought, a 330gtc & 355 gts would be a great combo IMHO.

Cheers!

 

Very succinctly put, and I agree with everything said. I'm fortunate enough to own a 250 Lusso and have done many thousands of miles rallying one as well and cannot help feeling this 1960's era car now feels quite underpowered and dated. I was lucky enough to enjoy a 330GTC for a summer and just loved that car but couldn't afford to keep it and I can't bring myself to sell the Lusso.....decisions !! In my head a 330GTC is simply a 275GTB chassis with a big engine and a very pretty better built body for a quarter of the 275GTB price. Adorable cars as long as not red!!
Regarding the Dino, (I have a white 246GT since 1987) I always feel that the engine is a bit on the fragile side and one day my dream is to find a fixer up 246GT and install a 328 engine. Sounds heresy, but it would be the best of all worlds and not really butchering anything especially rare.
This is a fun thread.

 

You might try test-driving an example of each of these, as the 330GTC and the 330 GT 2+2 have totally different underpinnings and handling characteristics, even though they share the same engine. Both trade frequently so you might not have to wait longer than a few months to find one. Ferrarimarketletter.com is a decent resource for cars for sale. Buy the best example you can find, and budget an additional $10,000 fixing stuff that needs to be fixed within the first few months of ownership.

A knowledgeable mechanic will be able to get pretty much anything needed to keep the car running. There are mechanics all over California - if you live in a urban area you are probably 30 miles from 2 of them you can chose from. Not all mechanics have equal skill sets, in which case you might consider asking in the California Forum for PPI recommendations once you've found a car.

 

Try Kerry's site: www.330gt.com

Regards,

Art S.

 

Fascinating reading, especially Steve's very comprehensive reply. I agree with Steve down the line, having experienced all of these. My heart goes to the 250's, having had more than a few, but I can't expect you to share my affection. I would only add that the Daytona is a great car out on the road, but very heavy to steer around town; not something you want in heavy traffic. Cars of the same model can differ greatly depending on the condition of the mechanical components, so try out as many as you can. As always, try to find the best car; one on which someone else has already busted his butt sorting it out. Good luck!

 

Thank you posters for kind comments. And coming from you Ed.......I wish I had 10% of your knowledge and experiences. I just feel lucky to have been able to drive the cars I mentioned in my summation. Notably missing was the Lusso and the 275 GTB. I lusted after the 275 Bs but for some reason was a day late and a [more than a few] dollar(s) short. Almost pulled the trigger on a Straman cut 2-cam long nose....advance apologies to the purists. That design still brings chills when I see it.

I am kindof a mixed [maybe mixed-up] Ferrari enthusiast. I got into newer cars after the Boxer with the first being a 355 which I liked, a 360 not much, then 3 Maranello versions, a 550, 575 and now an SA. The Maranello is a great GT that combines thrill, sounds and feel of the road. Love all of the Maranellos.

But back on topic.......sometime it is hard to explain to many the fun of owning and driving the vintage Ferraris. You get to really connect with the car. Not only with the efforts in driving at speed, but also the particular sounds, smells and idiosyncrasies of these hand built creations. Just walking out in the garage fills your senses with sight and smell [yes I know it is gasoline]. It really is a different sort that can appreciate and love these cars with all of their shortcomings.

If the OP lived 3000 miles closer to me I would be more than happy to give him my GTC [and Dino] to try out for a bit. I like sharing the experience with others. We are just custodians of these little bits of automotive art and engineering.

 

I embarked upon a similar search last year. I thought I wanted a Daytona and shopped them all over the place. Then at Fantasy Junction I drove a Daytona and a 330 GTC back to back, and decided on the spot I was looking at the wrong car. Even for even money, I'd rather drive the GTC. I love the chassis: transaxle, IRS, Love the pininfarina design which is just timeless, love the big greenhouse, it makes all the right sounds, smells, and feel.
Mine has Borrani wheels which I like with the color, but the magnesium alloys are just great looking on the darker cars.
It still feels like an old car in terms of handling, brakes and power, but in a good way; the epitome of the vintage experience...

 

Nice to hear many people defending the 330GTC corner, considering how underappreciated that model has always been. Very happy with mine (although the bill that's coming is a probably going to bit harsher than expected... )!


Onno

 

Onno,

What happened with your car that you expect a big bill for? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

More of a culmination of things, due to use. Turns out the gas valves in the carbs are worn to be point they can't be adjusted anymore. I had noticed the car started to run less smoothly recently and tended to trail on throttle release more severely. My specialist had done a good job trying to adjust her quickly just before I set off for the Mille Miglia but wasn't 100% happy with the way she ran. Neither was I, turns out full revision and rebuilt of the carbs required. Then the exhaust dampers turn out to be too damaged to be salvaged so we'll look for a new ANSA exhaust. The stainless Tubi was suggested to me but I don't want to sacrifice the gorgeous original look of the ANSA's. New rear tyres required - drove those down to slicks almost. I also noticed that my gear box is having trouble synching more and more often, and it also jumped out of gear twice during my Italy trip. This is quite worrying to me. They haven't looked at that yet... could be expensive. We've also decided to go with a dynamo with internal regulator, rather than the Lucas one. It's not original but looks close enough not to be noticed, and it saves me all the hassle I've had in the past. And it can easily be reversed at any time.

Anyway, nothing to be particularly alarmed about but it adds up. I already had a $4k bill 5 months ago for this that and the other. At least she can't claim she's not being looked after.

In any case, I think for 15k kms of pleasure I don't think it's unreasonable or unexpected. She should be ready for quite a bit of driving again after this.


Onno

 

This is a point any vintage guy knows and those considering jumping in should think about in their decision process. These cars are 40 to 50 yrs old. Many components have been replaced once and these replacements can be 20+ yrs old and ready to go again. Headers and exhausts, alternators, radiators, carb pieces, fuse boxes and wiring harnesses, water and fuel pumps, suspension pieces.....you get the picture. When one acquires a car a PPI only goes so far to determine the condition of a car. Only after period of time of driving the car will you know what the needs are. Hopefully shortcomings don't pop up at inopportune times...as in Onno's regulator issue before the MM.

When I bought my current GTC about 6 yrs ago I managed to do a few minor things to keep it running decently. But after a while I knew it was in need of an overhaul. Although it had received a "restoration" in 1999 this was mostly cosmetic and not a thorough mechanical updating. Fortunately I was able to do the "reasoning" that since I had purchased the car in 04 for approx $100k I could "justify" an complete engine rebuild. Note none of this "reasoning nor justifiying" was done with spousal input )

In June of 09 I embarked on this mechanical work. Fortunately the transaxle was excellent needing nothing. But the engine had 4 cylinders slightly oval and 3 broken oil rings. But not only was the engine in need there was a lot of "while you are at it"... One year later and long story short a lot of time, effort, parts chasing and big $$ went into making my car near new again. Still not done but will wait a while before the next push.

So to Fangio8C, the OP and any other venturing into the vintage world try to look past the excitement and thrill of owning one of these beautiful machines. Be realistic about what it takes to keep these cars running properly and be prepared to park some capital for the upkeep. In the end it is all worth it. I get more of a thrill looking, cleaning, tinkering, and especially driving my updated GTC. As has been said repeatedly....buy the best you can...but be prepared for the on-going cost of ownership.

 

Onno,

One possibilty for jumping out of gear can be overlooked. The GTC has the torque tube rigidly connecting the motor and the gearbox. The assembly can float on the 4 motor/gearbox mounts. There is a thrust reaction rod from the bellhousing to the chassis, with a silentbloc at the bell-housing end for connection, and a sandwich of rubber mounts at the chassis end. I believe this rod helps to keep the motor/torque tube/gearbox assembly from shifting forward or backward under load. If the mounts of this rod are worn, or if the set-up is loose, and the motor/gearbox mounts are worn, the assembly can shift too much relative to the chassis. As the gear lever housing is rigidly attached to the chassis, the shift rod connected to the gear lever can in effect move in relation to the gearbox - without touching the gear lever.